FrathWiki - User contributions [en]

Naeso

2011-04-19T15:07:11Z

Micahjohnston:

{{PD}}{{infobox|name=Naeso|pronounce={{IPA|/naˈe.so/}}|tu=here and now|species=humans|in=[irc://chat.freenode.net/naeso #naeso]|no=9|script=[[Naeso/Orthography|Syllabary]]|tree=isolate|wo=VSO|creator=blisk, [[User:Bornfor|bornfor]], [[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]], [[User:Sel messitihildi|MalfermitaKodo]] and [[User:Micahjohnston|micahjohnston]]|date=from 17 September, 2010 onward}}[[Image:Naeso.jpg]]

This is the homepage of the language Naeso, a collaborative project of [irc://chat.freenode.net/conlang #conlang] members. It was begun on 17 September, 2010. The separate channel [irc://chat.freenode.net/naeso #naeso] was created shortly after.

We've pulled the majority of critical stuff from [http://colllang.wikispaces.com/ the old Wikispaces site]. If you're looking for something to do, however, this [http://wiki.df.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Wikispaces_to_Mediawiki_Converter converter script may be useful] for bringing the rest of the information over, even though it doesn't handle all weirdities of Wikispaces syntax perfectly.

We are on [http://cals.conlang.org/language/naeso/ CALS]! To edit, tell [[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] your username.

==Member list==
*'''blisk''' (away)
*'''BlueRider''' (away)
*'''[[User:Bornfor|bornfor]]'''
*'''[[User:Esploranto|Esploranto]]''' (away)
*'''[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]]'''
*'''[[User:Jim Henry|jim_henry]]'''
*'''[[User:Sel messitihildi|MalfermitaKodo]]'''
*'''[[User:Micahjohnston|micahjohnston]]''' (away)

If you're one of the people marked as away, please pop into [irc://chat.freenode.net/naeso #naeso] and let us know that you're back!

==Big issues of the now==

===New users===

We are accepting new contributors! If you'd like to help out with this language, join [irc://chat.freenode.net/naeso #naeso] on Freenode and let us know! We'd be happy to have you.

===Inactive users===

*If inactive people count towards majority, we run into problems such as the very low activity in the last few months. We could make it a rule that only active members have full voting rights, or something like that. Discuss! —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 13:51, 17 April 2011 (PDT)
*Sounds good. Maybe, if someone hasn't voted in N days (with N set fairly generously), they count as inactive and aren't needed to count toward a quorum on a given issue? --[[User:Jim Henry|Jim Henry]] 18:06, 17 April 2011 (PDT)
**Alright, let's put this to a vote.

{{V|N{{=}}30|FH|y|RJ|y|MJ|y}}

===LCC4 relay ring B===

*[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] has entered himself for ring B of the [[LCC4 relay]], with Naeso as the language. Of course, he will need the help of the other project members.

{{V|Is everyone okay with that?|FH|y|BF|y|JH|y|RJ|y}}

*[[User:bornfor|bornfor]] is really excited about this.

*If the donkey is feeling too well... (Seriously: good luck, Fenhl) ~RJ

{{Naeso}}

Naeso/Dictionary/Proposed words

2010-10-24T00:33:19Z

Micahjohnston: /* imperative mood */

''List all unapproved words here'' (alphabetically when possible for ease of searching) ''until they're voted in. We are always voting on how to translate a given English word. Vote in the section below this, and remember to remove the word from this list once it's either voted in or voted out. Thanks!''

==Proposed suffixes==

===imperative mood===
{{V|-gy|JH=y|FH=y|BF=y|ES=n|MJ=y}}

===additive plural===
-un — **voted out**

{{V|-m|FH=y|MJ=y|JH=n|ES=n}}
{{V|-am|BF=y|JH=n|FH=n|MJ=n|ES=n}}
*-am is already progressive aspect. —FH
*both are very similar to other aspects that use -m. —ES
{{V|-n/-un|ES=y|FH=y|JH=y}}
*-n when a word ends in vowel, -un when it ends in consonant. —ES

===associative plural===
*Used similarly to English "& co.", see also the [http://wals.info/feature/description/36 description at WALS].

{{V|-lun|FH=y|JH=y}}
*wouldn't this come in conflict with endings in -n? -ES
**I don't think so. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 17:52, 22 October 2010 (PDT)
{{V|-dun|ES=y|JH=n|FH=y}}
{{V|same as additive plural|FH=y|JH=n}}
{{V|no associative plural|FH=n|JH=n}}

===genitive+plural===
*This is supposed to work with all plural forms: additive, collective and [http://wals.info/feature/description/36 associative].
-sti - **voted out**
*(violates phonotactics —FH)

{{V|-tsi|FH=y|JH=y}}
{{V|-bim|MJ=y|FH=y|JH=n}}

*why not -bin or -bun? —ES

{{V|-bin|ES=y|JH=n|FH=y}}
{{V|-bun|ES=y|JH=n|FH=y}}

===present tense===
*(aspect? WTF. Someone please name this right, as I really don't know how it should be. - BF)

{{V|-su|BF=y|FH=y|JH=n|ES=y}}
*(Remember that it's not yet decided whether we will suffix aspect on verbs or tense particles —FH)
*(Or something else, like using adverbs for aspect. The first phase of that vote is going on now on the Grammar page. But I don't see a reason not to propose these affixes now and show examples of their use on the Sentences page. And maybe if we end up not having inflectional aspect, always marked on every verb, we can still have some specific derivational aspect suffixes (like e.g. English or French or Esperanto's "re-" prefix; that's derivational, not inflectional like aspect in Russian or Volapük).—JH)
**TODO move this discussion to [[Naeso/Grammar|Grammar]] page and add a vote rubric for it
*See the [[Sentences]] page to view proposed examples of how the aspect suffixes might be used and vote on them.

===question marker / interrogative mood suffix===

{{V|-tu|FH=y|JH=y|ES=y}}

==Proposed grammatical particles==

===it===
{{V|ke|FH=y|JH=y|BF=y}}
*(Fenhl suggests using this only for inanimates; I think we might use the non-IRC-participant or epicene pronoun for nonhuman living beings. —JH)
*(However, we have voted on the principle "Let usage define meaning", which is why I didn't explicitely state the above. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]])

===pronoun for last (most recent) line of chat===
{{V|ky|JH=y|FH=y|ES=y}}

===pronoun for last (most recent) line of chat posted by the speaker===
{{V|soa|JH=y|FH=y|ES=y}}

===temporal preposition===
{{V|fyu|FH=y|ES=n|JH=y}}
{{V|fui|ES=y|JH=n|FH=n}}
*This can be used for stuff like ''four weeks ago'' or ''next month''. How exactly these will be translated is not yet defined. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 17:09, 17 October 2010 (PDT)

===Interrogative pronoun===
{{V|poynh|FH=y|JH=y}}
*examples: ku poynh = who, pan poynh = what, fyu poynh = when [[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 17:09, 17 October 2010 (PDT)
*I think it would make sense to describe this as an interrogative pronoun, indifferent to IRC/sex/animacy gender, than a "question particle". I also propose that it be used after nouns to mean "which X?". [[User:Jim Henry|Jim Henry]] 16:49, 18 October 2010 (PDT)
**I totally agree. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 17:05, 18 October 2010 (PDT)

===locative preposition===
{{V|so|FH=y|JH=y}}
*examples: so inna = there, so ua = here, so Lutetsia = in/near Paris, so Iakobo = at Jim's/where Jim is —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 11:20, 23 October 2010 (PDT)

==Proposed content words==

===to fish (verb)===
{{V|vui|FH=y|JH=y|ES=y}}

===to hover, float in midair===
{{V|apfe|JH=y|FH=y|BF=y|ES=n}}
*Esploranto: what is your suggestion? You can't just vote against it without voting for something else. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 18:25, 18 October 2010 (PDT)
{{V|pavi|ES=y|JH=y|FH=y}}

===hovercraft===
{{V|kunoy'apfe|JH=y|FH=y|BF=y|ES=n}}
{{V|kunoypavi|ES=y|JH=n|FH=y}}

===balloon, dirigible===
{{V|kunoypavi|JH=y|FH=y}}

===to fly===
{{V|pavi|FH=y|JH=n}}

===to fly (powered/guided flight, as birds, butterflies, airplanes, dirigibles)===
{{V|temya|JH=y}}

===to fly (ballistic flight)===
{{V|meumi|JH=y}}

===airplane, dirigible===
{{V|kunoytemya|JH=y}}

===spaceship===
{{V|kunoymeumi|JH=y}}

===to want===
{{V|sidu|BF=y|JH=n|FH=n}}
*I suggest using a desiderative mood affix like bornfor's proposed "-im" with the main verb, rather than a dedicated "want" verb. To say you want a thing rather than want to perform an action, put the "-im" suffix on an "acquire" or "possess" or "eat" or "drink" etc. verb. —JH
**This suffix is already voted in, so I second this —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 07:04, 23 October 2010 (PDT)

===farti===
*As an equivalent of Esperanto "farti", this verb means "to be (well, ill, healthy, sick, etc.)"
{{V|paja|FH=y|JH=y|ES=y}}

===duck===
{{V|anka|FH=y|JH=y}}
*Yes, I am aware that the swedish word for "duck" is also anka, but pronounced differently. No one complained about lol either. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 07:04, 23 October 2010 (PDT)

===house, building, permanent structure===
{{V|kyba|JH=y|FH=y}}

===public, free===
*free as in "free software", not "free of charge"
{{V|pimum|FH=y|JH=y}}

===public transportation vehicle===
*bus, train, subway, …
{{V|kunoy pimum|FH=y|JH=y}}

===public transportation station===
*train station, bus station, …
{{V|kunoypimum|FH=n|JH=n}}
{{V|kyba kunoypimumbi|JH=y|FH=y}}

===to sit===
{{V|Mansu|FH=y|JH=y}}
*(just because I am voting yes on the word doesn't mean I approve of capitalizing all verbs [[User:Jim Henry|Jim Henry]] 16:51, 23 October 2010 (PDT))

==Colors==

*I suggest letting "dol" cover orange and yellow as well as what we call "red" in English. —JH
*I suggest we let dol be red, and not orange/yellow. We should have six main colors, plus things like black and white. —FH

===orange===
{{V|nhunh|FH=y|BF=y|JH=n|RJ=n|ES=n}}

*I cannot pronounce that... -RJ
**Good thing we agreed on allowing idiolects. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 18:33, 18 October 2010 (PDT)

{{V|nunh|FH=y|RJ=y|ES=y|JH=n}}

===yellow===
{{V|djy|FH=y|JH=n|ES=n}}

==logic==

===position===
{{V|[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefix_notation prefix]|FH=y|JH=n}}
{{V|[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infix_notation infix]|FH=n|JH=y}}
{{V|[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postfix_notation postfix]|FH=n|JH=n}}

E.g., supposing that "bvi" gets voted in for "and", then for each of those possible positions we would express "red and blue" as:
* '''prefix:''' bvi dol gel
* '''infix:''' dol bvi gel
* '''suffix:''' dol gel bvi

Suffix notation seems very out of place re: Naeso's VSO and head + modifier order. Prefix notation could be interesting, but I am worried that it would be unclear when it affects something more than a pair of single words (two prepositional phrases, two clauses...). I'm voting for infix conjunctions for now, but I might change my vote if someone proposes a good way to disambiguate prefix conjunctions with phrases or clauses. --[[User:Jim Henry|Jim Henry]] 10:12, 23 October 2010 (PDT)

===and===
{{V|bvi|FH=y|JH=y}}

===and/or===
{{V|dzo|FH=y|JH=y}}

===exclusive or / unless===
{{V|pfe|FH=y|JH=y}}

==Suggestion list==

''If you've grown attached to a certain word or phrase and want it included in the lex, but don't have the faintest idea about what you want it to mean, list it here. We'll consider this the 'grab bag'- other people can look here for inspiration and develop words or phrases off of the ones here, or use them in their entirety.''
'''Please do not vote below!'''

*bendiza

{{Naeso}}

Naeso/Grammar

2010-10-20T21:57:05Z

Micahjohnston:

=Grammar of Naeso=

This entire page is probably going to be changing rapidly due to the current status of voting regarding it. Please be aware of this and keep checking back often! Your vote counts!

==[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language Fusional]., [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language agglutinating] or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolating_language isolating]?==

Our language is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language fusional].

==Basic sentence structure==

Our language uses VSO word order.

==Word types==
''Status: In the works''

*'''Nouns:''' Our language has nouns.
** ''Verbal nouns'': Our language has verbal nouns.
*Verbs:''' Our language has verbs, including 'to be'. -- ''However'', Naeso does not have the verb 'to have'. 'To own', 'to carry', 'to possess', 'to keep', etc, and also an existential structure can replace it.
*'''Adjectives:''' Our language has adjectives.
*'''Adverbs''': Adjectives/adverbs are a single class of modifiers.

''(I think that we should consider making adverbs a different class from adjectives, created by inflecting adjectives, to resolve the ambiguity with multiple descriptors discussed below. We could maybe even make things that describe adverbs another class, created by using the same inflection on adverbs. - MJ)''

===Nouns in Naeso===
''Status: Not yet discussed''

===Verbs in Naeso===
''Status: Currently being voted on''

Verbs inflect for tense.

''Results of another vote on the [[Naeso/Suffixes]] page contradict this. We're re-voting below....''

*Decided:
**Verbs do not conjugate according to subject or object.

*'''Undecided''':

Verbs may or may not inflect for the following categories - a "no" vote on any of these means it could be marked by anything other than verb inflection (e.g. adverbs, prepositional phrases, separate particles, inflection of some word other than the main verb), specifics to be decided after this vote is over:

{{V|Tense|BF=y|RJ=y|JH=n|FH=n|BL=n}}
{{V|[http://www.rickharrison.com/language/aspect.html Aspect]|JH=y|RJ=y|FH=n|BL=n|BF=n|MJ=y}}
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_mood Mood]/[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_modality modality] — '''Voted in.'''
{{V|[http://archives.conlang.info/pe/zholbhi/qheldorfuen.html Validationality]|RJ=y|FH=y|JH=n|BL=n|BF=n}}
{{V|Plural|FH=y|JH=n|MJ=n}}

*(I suggest we wait a bit and see how the votes on tense, aspect and validationality go before making up a lot of mood affixes. If we vote in one or more of the other categories, we might want to fuse some of them, e.g. have indicative mood intersect with various kinds of validationalities or all the moods intersect with some or all of the tenses & aspects. - JH)

*(Since Naeso is fusional I'd argue that we will need many combinations of mood and whatever else gets voted in, so we will just say that the modality suffixes we create now are in the default tense (e.g. present), aspect (e.g. not progressive or whatever), and validationality (e.g. "almost sure"). When we vote something else in, we can create suffixes that combine two or more of these categories. ~FH)

====What moods will be marked by inflection?====
# {{V|Indicative|JH=n|FH=n}}
# Interrogative — '''voted in'''
# Imperative/hortative/jussive
#* {{V|Only for first and third persons.|FH=y|JH=y|BL=y}}
#* {{V|Also for second person.|FH=y|MJ=y|JH=n}}
# Abilitative, i.e. equivalent of English "can/may" auxiliary verbs - '''voted in'''
# Desiderative, i.e. equivalent of English "want/wish" auxiliary verbs - '''voted in'''
# Others...?

*I suggest that a bare verb with no subject mentioned could be interpreted as second-person imperative, and needn't get a mood affix. Similarly a bare verb with an explicit subject can be assumed to be indicative without any explicit marking; that would make words on average shorter. —JH
*I think it would be cool to be able to leave off subjects though. I think we should allow indicative sentences with no subject, perhaps with an indicative inflection to distinguish from imperative. [[User:micahjohnston|micahjohnston]]

===Modifiers (adjectives and adverbs) in Naeso===
''Status: Being discussed & voted on''

====How will multiple modifiers applied to the same noun be handled?====
*a. Just string them together after the noun: noun mod1 mod2 mod3...
*b. Use an "and" word between them: noun mod1 and mod2 and mod3...
*c. Use an "and" between them when ambiguity seems likely, i.e. when it might be uncertain whether mod2 modifies mod1 or the noun
*d. Any modifiers after the first are marked with a relative clause: noun mod1 which is mod2 and mod3...

{{V|a.|FH=y|MJ=y}}
{{V|b.|FH=n}}
{{V|c.|FH=y}}
{{V|d.|JH=y|BL=y|FH=n}}

===Naeso Pronouns===

Rows where the right-hand column is blank have forms not yet decided. Please propose specific forms on the [[Naeso/Dictionary/Proposed words|proposed words]] page and copy them here after the votes there are decided.

{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" border="1"
|-
| I
| si
|-
| you (singular, someone who recently joined the IRC channel)
| pae
|-
| you (singular, someone who's been part of the conversation for a while)
| tha
|-
| you (sing.)
| y
|-
| he
| the
|-
| she
| je
|-
| it
|
|-
| 3SG current IRC participant
| ipu
|-
| 3SG sometime IRC participant not online at the moment
| yl
|-
| 3SG someone who's never on IRC
| tyma
|-
| third-person singular undefined for gender or IRC status, 'one'
| ze
|-
| we (inclusive)
| lynh
|-
| we (exclusive)
| sim
|-
| you (pl.)
| ym
|-
| they
|
|}

====Gendered singular pronouns====

Naeso has optional gender-marking in its third-person singular pronouns. The pronoun "ze" can be used for a specific person whose gender is unknown or which the speaker doesn't wish to specify (the equivalent of Esperanto "ri"), ''or'' for a nonspecific person (the equivalent of French "on", Esperanto "oni", formal English "one").

====IRC-oriented singular pronouns====

Naeso has distinctions in its second-person pronouns depending on whether the addresse is a regular on IRC or is only occasionally on the current channel.

Naeso has optional distinctions in its third-person pronouns depending on whether the mentioned person is a participant in the current chat, someone on IRC at times but offline (or possibly away) at the moment, or someone who's never on IRC. The pronoun "ze" can be used for a specific person whose IRC status is unknown or which the speaker doesn't wish to specify, as well as for a nonspecific person.

How, if at all, those will be used outside of IRC, will be detemined by actual usage.

====Plural pronouns====

It's not yet decided what categories, if any, are marked on second and third-person plural pronouns.

====Nonhuman pronouns====

It's not yet decided what whether Naeso has a single third-person pronoun for all nonhumans, or perhaps one for animals and one for everything else, or one for domestic animals & human artifacts and another for everything else, or...

===Prepositions===

It's been decided that Naeso has prepositions, and that it will use prepositions for marking [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thematic_relation cases/thematic roles]. A fair number of prepositions have been voted in on the [[Naeso/Dictionary|Dictionary]] page and others are currently being voted on. Another question about prepositions is yet to be voted on:

====Will some or all prepositions inflect for definiteness (i.e., equivalent of "the/a" in English)?====
*a. The most animate or topical preposition (i.e., roughly the "subject") in a given sentence will inflect for definiteness. Typically this will be "ku", "jen", or "bu" (see the Dictionary page).
*b. Only prepositions for core grammatical relations (agent, patient, experiencer, and similar) will inflect for definiteness - not peripheral ones like "at", "during", "with", etc.
*c. All prepositions inflect for definiteness.
*d. No prepositions inflect for definiteness.

{{V|a|JH=y|FH=y|BL=y}}
{{V|b|MJ=y|FH=y}}
{{V|c|FH=n}}
{{V|d|FH=y|JH=n}}

====How are prepositions that are not required to inflect handled?====
*1. Other prepositions can be marked for definiteness for clearing up ambiguity or artistic reasons.
*2. Other prepositions must not be marked for definiteness.

{{V|1.|FH=y|MJ=y}}
{{V|2.|JH=y|BL=y|FH=n|MJ=n}}

{{Naeso}}

Naeso/Phonology

2010-10-20T21:01:30Z

Micahjohnston: voting

=Phonology of Naeso=

==Syllable Structure==
''Status: Completed / In the works''
(C)V(N)

C is a consonant or affricate
V is a vowel
N is a nasal or liquid

==Affricates==
''Status: Completed / In the works''

These are the possible affricates:
/ts, dz, dʒ, tθ, bv, pf/

==Consonants==
''Status: Completed / In the works''

* Stops: /p b t d k g/
* Nasals: /m~ɱ n ŋ/
* Fricatives: /f v θ s z ʒ/
* Liquids: /l/

==Vowels==
''Status: Completed / In the works''

Our vowels are /i, u, a, y, e/ and /o/.

All vowels are pronounced separately. E.g., "Naeso" is syllabized as /na.'e.so/.

One vowel cluster is allowed in a single root word or affix, and any combination of two of Naeso's vowels forms a valid cluster.

===Does "any combination of two of Naeso's vowels" mean two different vowels, or also two instances of the same vowel?===
{{V|Two different vowels; sequences like "aa" are disallowed in roots and are broken by liason/simplified (see vote below) if they are formed at morpheme boundaries|JH?y|RJ=y|FH=y|MJ=n}}
{{V|Doubled vowels are allowed: sequences like "aa" are pronounced /a.a/ as two syllables|JH=n|RJ=n|FH=y}}
{{V|Doubled vowels are allowed: sequences like "aa" are pronounced /a:/ as a long vowel|JH=n|RJ=n|FH=y|MJ=y}}

'''The restriction on vowel clusters applies only to roots.'''

I.e., when two or more clusters occur in a compound or derived word, that's OK; they don't get simplified.

===If a compound or derived word would have a sequence of three or four vowels (if e.g. the first element ends in a vowel cluster and the second element begins with a vowel or vowel cluster), how is this sequence dealt with?===
Liason: insert a consonant after the first or second vowel of a three-vowel sequence or after the second vowel of a four-vowel sequence. (4/0) (JH,FH,BF,RJ/0)
{{V|The liason consonant should be /t/|FH=n}}
*I think we should use a consonant that isn't already in use. [[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]]
{{V|The liason consonant should be glottal stop /ʔ/|JH=y|RJ=y|FH=y|MJ=y}}

{{Naeso}}