FrathWiki - User contributions [en]

Askaic

2024-03-31T18:49:22Z

IJzeren Jan:

{{stub}}

'''Askaic''' is a [[Fictional language|fictional]] [[a posteriori]] [[diachronic conlang|diachronic]] [[conlang]] created by Jan van Steenbergen during 1996. It is an indo-european conlang and a member of a fictional branch of that language family, the "Khadurian languages". Askaic is closely related to [[Hattic]].

The " home page" listed below contains another text (about stars). No grammatical information beyond a handful of listserv posts has been found online.

==Babel Text==
1. Cha toki pušui epud sñeik uins cha luvoi šmoneš. 
2. Anu etnuder, za kraitandeš af arsimaš esrahens punu fluju en uris Šinarš cha eburens svam. 
3. Cha urš eled saifi soi: "Hynu! Za seivaimu untseš cha uso itaimu sanš." Cha asetajins sanš gve mejavuntseš, cha poldu epud supuš bitum. 
4. Cha elens: "Hynu, za mejaimu kerñ cha bašam, ychru ušaš šelestised tsivu. Cha seivasmeš nypuš švonpuš jenu, zeñza nai vaifyzesmer jofer toki pušui." 
5. Aza Seiš eilhynud, aseza espychud kerñ cha bašam mejardañ zrau erchus hirsum. 
6. Cha Seiš eled: "Spychut! Sakš uins cha sñeik uins az šakpuš, cha ku ade, ju gagainer tenze. Cha ñu naju jensed supuš unteñfonu, ju fai jaluins tenze. 
7. Spychut! Ilhynsmeš cha svam mynsasmeš sñeikem suveñ, zeñza nai freinasens sñeikem sum halum." 
8. Cha svana Seiš evaifyzud senš jofer toki pušui, cha ešens mejaze kerñ. 
9. Svekas šu minader Babel, ukas za Seiš memynsa sñeikem tokau pušuš, cha svana Seiš vavaifyzu senš jofer toki pušui.

==External Links==
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20080112032354/http://www.langmaker.com/db/Askaic Askaic at LangMaker] (archived)
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20071012011338/http://www.langmaker.com/db/Askaic_Babel_Text Askaic Babel Text and LangMaker] (archived)
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20071210135952/http://nik_taylor.tripod.com/relay/askaic.html Askaic home page] (archived)

[[Category: Indo-European conlangs]]
[[Category: Conlangs]]
[[Category: Fictional languages]]
[[Category: a posteriori conlangs]]
{{ConlangRescue}}

Conlangs with over 10,000 words

2024-03-31T18:48:05Z

IJzeren Jan:

Because [[scrapper]]s and [[sandboxer]]s create and scrap so many conlangs, the vast majority of conlangs have a [[lexicon]] that doesn't get very large by the time they're scrapped. In fact, many conlangs have about 7 to 10 words by the time they're scrapped, and some never have a single word of lexicon created.

In this forest of creosote bushes, however, there are some sequoias that have astoundingly large lexica, such as [[Talossan]], [[Arka]], or [[Spocanian]]. Occasionally, a conlang will become known mainly for its large lexicon size (as happened with Arka).

Here is a list of the largest of the large -- conlangs that have at least '''ten thousand''' words in their lexicon.

Excluded are:
#[[superset language|Superset]] and [[subset language]]s.
#Conlangs that consist of making only a few predictable changes to an existing language, such as [[Body Parts in Your Conlangs/Muphridian|Muphridian]]. Note that this includes all [[language game]]s such as [[Pig Latin]] and [[Adibikicyan]], as well as conlangs that are [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CypherLanguage ciphers in the truest sense of the word] (e.g. the [[No Man's Sky]] conlangs, or a conlang in which every A in the English word becomes an I, every B in the English word becomes a T, every C in the English word becomes an L, every D in the English word becomes an X, every E in the English word becomes a U, and so on). Conlangs that are [[relex]]es, but not cryptographic ciphers of natlang words, such as Froogleyboy's [[Aveata]], although they may be frowned upon in the conlanging community, are eligible for this list, as are conlangs in which someone relexed a list like [[WordNet]], or the [[Landau Core Vocabulary]], or the [[Ethnologue]] lexicon questionnaire.
#Conlangs whose lexicon consists of an unedited computer-generated data dump, such as [[Nunihongo]]. (Computer-generated conlangs whose lexicon has been cleaned up, such as Classical Yiklamu, are eligible for this list).
#Computer-generated material for making new words for a conlang, such as that made by Larry Rogers of Michigan (BA Linguistics, Michigan State University, 2009) for his expansion of Marc Okrand's [[Atlantean]] language. This was not intended as a conlang dictionary but merely as material which could be used to make new words, computer-generated words approximating the phonology of the original words.

Although [[User:Khemehekis|James Landau]], who has researched this list, has done quite an extensive search, there are no doubt at least a few conlangs that belong on this list that he's missed out on. Anyone is free to add them here.

Finally, it should be clarified that this list counts only how many words the creator or creators have actually ''created'' in the language, not the number of words that the creator says exist ''in-universe''.

==The list==
*about 10,000 [[Lingwa de planeta]] ([[Lidepla]]) - Dmitri Ivanov, A. Lysenko and others; worldlang based on 10 languages
*10,000 [[Farlingo]] - Vladimir Farber & Matvei Farber; auxlang based on SAE languages, Russian, Hebrew and Esperanto
*10,000 [[Faudanian]] - Josh Hien; a posteriori personal language
*10,000 [[Fith]] - Jeffrey Henning; alien language with "last in, first out" structure
*10,000 [[Lugasuese]] - Jurre Lagerwaard; spoken on the planet Aranii, based on Germanic and Tolkienian languages
*10,000 [[Unish]] - Language Research Institute, Sejong University; auxlang based on 16 languages from many phyla
*more than 10,000 [[Loglan]] - James Cooke Brown; logical language with a posteriori lexicon
*10,910 [[Town Speech]]/[[Urban Basanawa]] - k1234567890y; West Germanic artlang (its Germanic nature obscured by writing system and large amount of Sino-Xenic vocabulary)
*11,000 [[LANGUST]] - Grigoriy Korolev; auxlang based on 45 "atoms", [[aUI]]-style
*over 11,000 [[Uropi]] - Joël Landais; zonal language for Europe based on Indo-European roots
*11,111 [[Rireinutire]] - Prettydragoon; spoken on the planet Rireinu
*11,200 [[Paolanté]] - B. Christopher Suchsland-Gutiérrez; fictional Romance language
*11,500 [[Interslavic (seventeenth-century conlang)|Interslavic]] - Juraj Križanic; Slavic zonal language
*about 12,000 [[Rodinian]] - Rodiniye; worldlang repurposed as an artlang
*12,000 [[HOOM]] - Rood Hume; intuitive a priori auxlang for the universe
*12,000 [[Tundrian]] - Gábor Sándi; Romance language spoken in the fictional country of Tundria
*12,130 [[Géarthnuns]] - Douglas Koller; a priori language spoken on a fictional island in the Sea of Japan
*12,363 [[Mango]] - Natalia Gruscha; spoken by the Tiger People of the planet Pii, based on Indo-Aryan languages
*13,000 [[Mila]] - Gary Taylor-Raebel; set in an alien colony, invented as a fauxlang but has since evolved naturally
*13,552 [[Tomato]] - Catty; innovative a priori auxlang
*14,000 [[Europeano]] - Jay Bowks; Euroclone
*14,000 [[Ido]] - Louis de Beaufront, Louis Couturat; Esperanto spinoff
*14,750 [[Kavrinian]] - Ultimate Ridley et al.; collaborative language spoken in Lhavres on the planet Sahar; most words created by others
*14,787 [[Minhyan]] - Jeffrey Henning; VSO fictional diachronic language with a priori vocabulary
*15,000 [[Chaldon-Siberian]] - Yaroslav Zolotaryov; purification of Slavic languages without Old Church Slavonic borrowings
*around 15,000 [[Deyryck]] - Threr; fictional language spoken in the multiverse of Alaaban
*16,000 [[Otg]] - Spencer Spurgeon; quirky fictional diachronic language inspired by Celtic and Turkish
*16,627 [[Arka]] - Seren Arbazard; spoken on the planet Kaldia
*over 17,000 [[Sambahsa-Mundialect]] - Dr. Olivier Simon; worldlang based on PIE, Arabic, Chinese, Indonesian, Swahili and Turkish
*more than 17,000 [[Kotava]] - Staren Fetcey; a priori auxlang
*about 18,000 [[Interslavic (modern conlang)|Interslavic]] - Jan van Steenbergen et al.; Slavic zonal language based on Old Church Slavonic, previously known as Slovianski
*20,000 [[Aixosixomi]] - Alexander M. Koch; language of a fictional hunter-gatherer people of Earth
*20,000 [[Sydvetlish]] - Matheus Filipe da Silva Leal; Germanic auxlang
*over 20,000 [[Lingua Franca Nova]] - George C. Boeree; Romance auxlang with creole grammar
*20,680 [[Noxilo]] - Sentaro Mizuta; worldlang that allows for many different word orders
*around 21,000 [[Celinese]] - Andy Ayres; macrolanguage spoken on the planet Lorech
*21,100 [[Basha Humrayan]] - MissTerry; a conlang and autocryptolect 90% based on the Sanskrit spectrum (ancient Vedic to Classical and "Modern") with very regular Esperanto style grammar
*21,100 [[Itlani]] - James E. Hopkins; spoken on the planet Itlán
*21,715 [[Lojban]] - The Logical Language Group; logical language, a reform of Loglan
*22,956 [[Pantakakiano]] - Javier Valladolid Antoranz; used in the novel ''El sueño en verso''
*over 25,000 [[Spocanian]] - Rolandt Tweehuysen; a priori fictional language from the Atlantic phylum
*25,234 [[FeNeKeRe]] - Jonathan Sodt; a priori fauxlang of Earth's Dragon People of the arts, with millions of possible names
*26,339 [[Blissymbolics]] - Charles K. Bliss; pasigraphy
*26,352 [[Sermo]] - Jose Soares Da Silva; Euroclone
*over 35,000 [[Talossan]] - R. Ben Madison; micronational language, Romance but lacking a consistent derivation from Latin
*39,765 [[Nuu]] - Thomas Keyes; a priori engelang/artlang spoken on Ung
*44,000 [[Slovio]] - Mark Hucko; Slavic zonal language
*46,950 [[EDA]]/[[Edanic]] - Arne Arotnow; Euroclone based on Italian
*51,831 [[Vedanic]] - Arne Arotnow; reform of Edanic
*over 60,000 [[Interlingua]] - International Auxiliary Language Association; Euroclone
*some 75,000 [[Neo]] - Arturo Alfandari; Euroclone
*77,000 [[Esperanto]] - Ludwig Lazarus Zamenhof; auxlang and the world's most successful conlang
*over 83,000 [[xuxuxi]] - John Cowan; based on the same principles as Classical Yiklamu
*87,500 [[Kankonian]] - James Landau; spoken on the planet Kankonia in the Lehola Galaxy
*91,591 [[Classical Yiklamu]] - Mark P. Line; engelang with computer-generated vocabulary based on WordNet and no derivation
*100,000 [[M̄av̄ī]] - Imjustadudeontheinternet; language created with the sole purpose of having 100,000 words. Relex of Toki Pona with a huge number of synonyms for each word.

==The M̄av̄ī Controversy==
In March of 2024, Imjustadudeontheinternet completed M̄av̄ī, which had 100,000 words. [[User:Khemehekis|Khemehekis]], creator of [[Kankonian]] (the conlang with the largest non-computer-generated lexicon), made a post about it on the CBB thread devoted to lexicon milestones. The post stated: "After spending decades on top, Classical Yiklamu has been dethroned [...] M̄av̄ī has 100,000 words, all defined with a Toki Pona definition, and was created for the sole purpose of having sextuple digits in its lexicon." This text was accompanied by a link to the [https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Largest_Conlangs Conlang Fandom "Largest Conlangs" page] and a wide-eyed emoji.

After this post, CBB users Visions1 and [[User:Arayaz|Arayaz]] responded with congratulations to Imjustadudeontheinternet and statements of their trust that eventually, the title would be Khemehekis's. This was followed by the following post from user criminalmammal: "There is no way this should count for anything. This person seems to have randomly generated their hundred thousand words and then assigned each of them a random, singular Toki Pona word: so it's a relex of Toki Pona where every word has seven hundred-odd synonyms, with no reason or nuance. It's a stunt and it seems sort of insulting considering the work that is put into languages that actually have thousands of dictionary entries."

Following criminalmammal's post, a [https://cbbforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=329262#p329262 discussion] ensued. Arayaz responded saying: "Wait, each one has *one* Toki Pona definition? I thought the person was just a hardcore Toki Pona fan and defined all their words in Toki Pona for fun. If it's a randomly generated relex, congratulations revoked. I suggest we update the requirements of the FrathWiki page." Following this, [[User:Soap|Pabappa]] suggested that similar insinuations could be made against Classical Yiklamu, the previous record-holder ─ Classical Yiklamu was entirely computer-generated and filled in a wordlist heavily tied to English ("even to the point of having the word for 'bat' mean both an animal and a sports implement," as Pabappa notes).

Khemehekis then expressed that he believed that Classical Yiklamu should still count, but that M̄av̄ī was "basically cheating" and the requirements of the "Conlangs with over 10,000 words" FrathWiki page (this one) should be updated to exclude it. "I mean," noted Khemehekis, "it's taken me 27 years -- the length of Kurt Cobain or Jimi Hendrix's life -- to get Kankonian up to even 86,400 words."

Arayaz then proposed that relexes should be disallowed, noting that she believed Classical Yiklamu shouldn't count either. She also suggested that "Perhaps one could require distinctive grammar of the language; i.e. something doesn't count if it's only a lexicon/wordlist. (Could be too extreme?) Or the rule related to unmodified computer-generated outputs could be extended."

Khemehekis then proposed to "[...] disqualify computer-generated relexes of a wordlist/vocabulary if they are created for the express purpose of having huge lexica? That'd disqualify Mmavvii, and it would keep someone from piggybacking onto my Kankonian lexicon to create a conlang with even more words than Kankonian."

As of March 29, 2024, no further responses have been made to the forum, but the rules of the FrathWiki page have not been updated, and M̄av̄ī remains the #1 largest conlang lexicon.

== Slovio ==
I stumbled upon this page by accident and noticed that Slovio is listed with 44,000 words, a number that I believe was mentioned on Wikipedia a long time ago. However, I've done thorough research on the Slovio dictionary and found that this number is far from correct, because it is not the number of words, but the number of entries in an Excel file. To quote from my article [https://fiatlingua.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/fl-000038-00.pdf "The Slovio Myth"]:

Numbers play an important role in Slovio propaganda, and the size of its dictionary is no exception. Most Wikipedia articles mention something about the number of words contained in the Slovio dictionary, an Excel file with currently ca. 65,000 entries. “More than some of the ‘natural’ languages”, says the main page. However, thorough analysis of the file yields the following results:
* thousands of (English) words are not translated into Slovio at all
* thousands of entries refer to internet domains, languages, geographic entities, inhabi¬tants of countries (male, female and gender-neutral), corresponding adjectives, etc.
* the plural of practically every noun is given as a separate entry, even though plurals are always formed regularly
* likewise, many verb forms (for example, past tenses) are given as separate entries
* it contains lots of doublets and endless numbers of synonyms: when six English words can be used to translate one Slovio word, it is listed six times
* a lot of nouns are also given as adjectives (just by adding ''-ju''), which often results in very strange words
* it contains numerous sentences, expressions and nonsense words like ''Europju banan-soiuz''.
In other words, the dictionary is stuffed with redundant entries that no “real” dictionary would ever include. If we remove these, we can conclude that Slovio’s actual word stock is somewhere in the range between 10,000 and 15,000. Still a respectable number, and definitely enough for a functional language – but not quite as impressive.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] ([[User talk:IJzeren Jan|talk]]) 11:48, 31 March 2024 (PDT)

Askaic

2018-03-17T22:38:26Z

IJzeren Jan: better version

{{stub}}

'''Askaic''' is a [[Fictional language|fictional]] [[a posteriori]] [[diachronic conlang|diachronic]] [[conlang]] created by Jan van Steebergen during 1996. It is an indo-european conlang and a member of a fictional branch of that language family, the "Khadurian languages" . Askaic is closely related to [[Hattic]].

The " home page" listed below contains another text (about stars). No grammatical information beyond a handful of listserv posts has been found online.

==Babel Text==
1. Cha toki pušui epud sñeik uins cha luvoi šmoneš. 
2. Anu etnuder, za kraitandeš af arsimaš esrahens punu fluju en uris Šinarš cha eburens svam. 
3. Cha urš eled saifi soi: "Hynu! Za seivaimu untseš cha uso itaimu sanš." Cha asetajins sanš gve mejavuntseš, cha poldu epud supuš bitum. 
4. Cha elens: "Hynu, za mejaimu kerñ cha bašam, ychru ušaš šelestised tsivu. Cha seivasmeš nypuš švonpuš jenu, zeñza nai vaifyzesmer jofer toki pušui." 
5. Aza Seiš eilhynud, aseza espychud kerñ cha bašam mejardañ zrau erchus hirsum. 
6. Cha Seiš eled: "Spychut! Sakš uins cha sñeik uins az šakpuš, cha ku ade, ju gagainer tenze. Cha ñu naju jensed supuš unteñfonu, ju fai jaluins tenze. 
7. Spychut! Ilhynsmeš cha svam mynsasmeš sñeikem suveñ, zeñza nai freinasens sñeikem sum halum." 
8. Cha svana Seiš evaifyzud senš jofer toki pušui, cha ešens mejaze kerñ. 
9. Svekas šu minader Babel, ukas za Seiš memynsa sñeikem tokau pušuš, cha svana Seiš vavaifyzu senš jofer toki pušui.

==External Links==
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20080112032354/http://www.langmaker.com/db/Askaic Askaic at LangMaker] (archived)
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20071012011338/http://www.langmaker.com/db/Askaic_Babel_Text Askaic Babel Text and LangMaker] (archived)
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20071210135952/http://nik_taylor.tripod.com/relay/askaic.html Askaic home page] (archived)

[[Category: Indo-European conlangs]]
[[Category: Conlangs]]
[[Category: Fictional languages]]
[[Category: a posteriori conlangs]]
{{ConlangRescue}}

Conlang Relay 17/Wenedyk

2018-03-17T22:23:54Z

IJzeren Jan: This one was also due

==Relay text==

Kędy mąd jora jękóra jewni i męcie jorą jękóra jałcie, wiwiewa si moszkieł. Ił nytrzewa ryś, wolkąk szczewa, kód rysie są przykłuzie, i porłęć oniestamięć, ił ćmiewa bieszcza. Uta i szyk łu faczewa, prostokód kośkiny szczewa nemież, kód Grędzi Jałby Jarecznik donie womni pociestać sem oniałór.

I dąk ił moszkieł dzieczydzie, kód niekód cierzewkarzy ił swej ryś. Ryś otamię wlewa sięgłamięć wrzecier o męcie.

Jerosty, ryś atace i parczałszy moszkieł, jecęć łu sur dros. Moszkieł, cierzewkaty, nie owa koczepcenie, kód posa. Rapidamięć ił statszy sie i dziekurszy.

Sur łu, ryś ryży sunuramięć. Par łu ryżąd męcie sie ożdawą, maż mółtydzień rysiór opary i oprośmie.
Rysie komięcorą kurzer po łu i kędy łu kotarą, dzieworarą łu.

==Glossary==

atakar (v.) attack 
bieszcza (f.) beast 
cierzewkar (v.) frighten, terrify 
ćmiar (v.) fear 
dar (v.) give 
dąk (adv.) so, thus 
donie: perfect tense, 3sg. of "dar" 
dros (n.) back 
dzieczydar (v.) decide 
dziekurzer (v.) run away 
dzieworar (v.) devour 
faczer (v.) do, make 
grędzi (adj.) big, great 
i (conj.) and 
i szyk (adv.) anyway, in any case 
ił (pron.pers.) he; (pron.dem.) this 
jałby (adj.) white 
jałty (adj.) high 
jarecznik (m.) archer 
jecar (v.) throw 
jeroszczer (v.) make angry, irritate 
jewni (adj.) young 
jękóra (adv.) still 
jora: imperfect tense, 3sg. of "szer" 
jorą: imperfect tense, 3pl. of "szer" 
kędy (adv., conj.) when 
koczepceń (f.) idea, conception 
komięcar (v.) begin 
kośkiny (adj.) every, each 
kotar (v.) catch, capture 
kód (conj.) that 
kurzer (v.) run 
łu (pron.pers.) it; him; (pron.dem.) this 
maż (conj.) and, but 
mąd (m.) world 
męć (m.) mountain 
moszkieł (m.) man 
mółtydzień (f.) multitude, a huge amount, a lot 
nemież (adv.) nonetheless, however, after all 
nie (adv.) not 
niekód (adv.) slightly, a bit, a little 
nytrzer (n.) feed 
o (prep.) at, to, towards 
oniał (n.) animal 
oniesty (adj.) honest 
oparzar (v.) appear 
oprośmar (v.) approach 
otamię (adv.) however, on the other hand 
owiar (v.) have 
ożdar sie (v.) shake, tremble 
par (prep.) through, by, because of 
parczeler (v.) knock down, overthrow 
po (prep.) behind, after 
pociestać (f.) power 
porłar (v.) speak, talk 
posar (v.) pass, happen 
prostokód (conj.) because 
przykłuzy (adj.) dangerous 
rapidy (adj.) quick, fast 
ryś (m.) lynx 
ryżer (v.) roar 
są: present tense, 3pl. of "szer" 
sem (prep.) over, above 
si (pron.refl.) dative of "sie" 
sie (pron.refl.) oneself 
sięgłamięć (adv.) only, just 
stacier sie (v.) stand up 
sunury (adj.) loud, noisy 
sur (prep.) on, upon 
swej (pron.poss.) one's own 
szczer (v.) know 
szer (v.) be 
uta (conj.) but 
wiwier (v.) live 
wlar (v.) want 
wolkąk (conj.) although 
womień (m.) human being, person 
wrzecier (v.) return

==A few things you may need to know about Wenedyk==

Wenedyk is the result of applying the sound changes that distinguish Modern Polish from Common Slavic, to Vulgar Latin. As a result, we have quite an ordinary romlang with a vocabulary that is mostly Romance and a morphology that is predominanty Latin-based as well, while phonology, orthography, pronunciation and syntax are basically the same as in Polish.

* Word order is basically free, although SVO would be the "neutral" way of saying something.
* Wenedyk has three genders (m, f, n), and two numbers (sg, pl).
* There are three cases: direct case, genitive, and dative.
* The direct case is nothing more than the nominative and the accusative in one.
* Adjectives, demonstrative pronouns, possessive pronouns and the like agree with the noun they modify in gender, number and case. They can be placed before and after the noun they modify.
* The object of a negation is always in the genitive case.
* Personal pronouns of the third person usually have the same forms as demonstrative pronouns.
* Pro-drop is allowed in Wenedyk, but not compulsory.
* There are several ways of turning an adjective into an adverb, but most common is the ending "-mięć".

Although Wenedyk doesn't have verbal aspect in the same way as the Slavic languages have it, aspect plays an important role in the use of verb tenses as well. Imperfective verb forms refer to a state or an ongoing process, while perfective verb forms refer rather to the result of an action. For example: "He felt [impf.] sad that day and so he went [pf.] to the shop next door and bought [pf.] a bottle of wine. Just when he was having [impf.] his third glass, his sister came in [pf.]." In the past, this difference is expressed by the imperfect and the perfect tenses, in the future by the imperfective and the perfective future tenses. In subordinate clauses, the tense is used that matches the point of view expressed in the main clause, for example: "His sister came [pf.], and when she looked at him [impf.], she saw [pf.] that he was [present] drunk."

In this text, you will encounter the following endings:

(noun endings) 
'''-a''': f. dir. sg. 
'''-ie''': m./f. dir. pl. 
'''-i''': m. dat. sg. 
'''-ór''': m./n. gen. pl. 
'''-ie''': m./f./n. gen. sg. (weak stems)

(adjective endings) 
'''-i, -y''': m. sg. dir. 
'''-ie''': pl. dir.

(verb endings) 
'''-a''': present tense, 3sg. 
'''-ąd''': verbal noun 
'''-ęć''': present active participle 
'''-(i)e''': perfect tense, 3sg. 
'''-r''': infinitive 
'''-rą''': perfect tense, 3pl. 
'''-rzy''': perfective future, 3sg. 
'''-szy''': perfect tense, 3sg. 
'''-ty''': perfect passive participle 
'''-wa''': imperfect tense, 3sg. 
'''-wą''': imperfect tense, 3pl. 
'''-y''': perfect tense, 3sg.

For reference, you can always peruse the grammar: http://steen.free.fr/wenedyk/

[[Category:Conlang Relay 17]]

Conlang Relay 18/Slovianski

2018-03-17T20:51:54Z

IJzeren Jan: cat.

== Relay text (Medžuslovjanski) ==
=== Latin alphabet ===
Jednogo dňa, večerom ale ješče ne pozdno, šamanica uspěla prizvati duh medvěďa. Toj medvěď byl ogromny i mnogo silnějši, než možno bylo očekivati od divokogo zvěřa. Kromě togo, ona uviděla, že on byl takož råzgněvany i mnogo agresivny. On råzrušil stěnų i vrčěl glåsno. Potom on pošel do kųta plošči i stanųl, grozno. Medvěď, koj už vśekak ne byl malenki, nyňe råsl ješče vęčej. Vśe prisųče ľudi bojali sę jego i vśegde izběgli, prestrašene.

Medžutym, ina žena, koja tvorila loviteli snov i prodavala ih na ploščě, spokojno ględěla na to vśečo. Potom, pomalo polzajųč črez nagromadžene na krajah plošči kupy sněga, ona sbližala sę do medvěďa i pozvala jego, da by prišel ku ňej. Ona byla krěpka i krasiva, ale jej obliče bylo červeno kak namaľovany Indijan iz drugoj stråny okeana i pot těkl iz ňej kak voda iz lista. Jednakže ona ględěla na životno bezpreryvno. I da! Togda uviděla, kak ono načina vračati. Šla za nim, neočekivano podnesla rųkų, usměhnųla sę k tomu groznomu zvěřu i načęla gladkati jego po nosě.

=== Cyrillic alphabet ===
Једного дньа, вечером але јешче не поздно, шаманица успела призвати дух медведьа. Тој медведь был огромны и много силнејши, неж можно было очекивати од дивокого зверьа. Кроме того, она увидела, же он был також разгневаны и много агресивны. Он разрушил стену и врчел гласно. Потом он пошел до кута плошчи и станул, грозно. Медведь, кој уж всекак не был маленки, нынье расл јешче вечеј. Все присуче льуди бојали се јего и всегде избегли, престрашене.

Меджутым, ина жена, која творила ловители снов и продавала их на плошче, спокојно гледела на то всечо. Потом, помало ползајуч чрез нагромаджене на крајах плошчи купы снега, она сближала се до медведьа и позвала јего, да бы пришел ку ньеј. Она была крепка и красива, але јеј обличе было червено как намальованы Индијан из другој страны океана и пот текл из ньеј как вода из листа. Једнакже она гледела на животно безпрерывно. И да! Тогда увидела, как оно начина врачати. Шла за ним, неочекивано поднесла руку, усмехнула се к тому грозному
зверьу и начела гладкати јего по носе.

== Grammar ==
Medžuslovjanski means “Interslavic”, and that’s precisely what it is. Yet, it is not a typical auxlang in the sense that everything is concentrated on simplicity and the like, even though the grammar is pretty simple and regular anyway. It has elements of an altlang (“what would Slavic have looked like if it hadn’t fallen apart into 18 languages?”), an engelang (in the sense that everything is created according to algorithms), a reconstructed language (a modernised form of Proto-Slavic) and an educational project as well. It is also known as “Slovianski”.

The phonology is rather inclusive, but that doesn’t really matter here. Most of the diacritics are just there to give a closer approximation to the right pronunciation and to make things a little easier for North Slavs, but most of them can safely be neglected or omitted.

As for grammar, here are some basics.

There are three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. The cases are nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, instrumental and locative. There’s singular and there’s plural, and that’s about it. There are four declensions: one masculine, one neuter, two feminine. There are no articles.

Adjectives, demonstrative pronouns and the like match the noun in gender, number and case. They usually come first, although that is not a hard rule. In fact, rules are rarely hard in MS.

Pro-drop is allowed, but not obligatory.

Most verbs come in two forms: imperfective (continuous, incomplete, present, iterative, etc.) and perfective (completed, non-progressive, semelfactive, etc.). The difference is lexical and therefore marked in the glossary.

There are three tenses: present, past and future. In this text, there’s only the former two. In a subordinate clause, the tense refers to the “moment” of the verb in the main clause - unlike in English, Slavs say: “He said (yesterday) that he wants coffee (also yesterday)”. In the present tense, verbs are inflected for person and number, in the past tense for gender and number. That’s because the past tense ending -l is actually a participle.

You will encounter the following endings:

Nouns: 
-a: m.gen.sg. 
-ah: m/f/n.loc.pl. 
-ě: m/f/n.loc.sg. 
-om: m.instr.sg. 
-ov: m.pl.gen. 
-u: m/n.dat.sg. 
-ų: f.acc.sg. 
-y/-i: f.gen.sg; m.nom.pl.

Adjectives: 
-a: f.nom.sg. 
-e: nom.pl. 
-ějši: comparative 
-o: n.nom./acc.sg.; adverb 
-ogo: m/n.gen.sg. 
-oj: f.gen.sg. 
-omu: m/n.dat.sg. 
-y/-i: m.nom.sg. 

Verbs: 
-X: present tense, 3rd person singular 
-l, -la, -lo, -li: past tense (m., f., n., pl.) 
-ti: infinitive 
-ny: past perfect participle 
-ųč: present active participle (gerund)

When the root of a word ends in a consonant, it may happen that the preceding vowel disappears when an ending is added.

== Glossary ==
agresivny (adj.) aggressive 
ale (conj.) but 
bezpreryvny (adj.) continuous 
bojati sę (vi.) to be scared, to be afraid 
byti (vi.) to be 
červeny (adj.) red 
črez (prep.) through 
da (intj.) yes 
da by (conj.) so that 
deň (m.) day 
divoki (adj.) wild 
do (prep.) to, towards 
drugi (adj.) second, other 
duh m. ghost, spirit 
gladkati (vi.) to caress, to stroke 
glåsny (adj.) loud 
ględěti (vi.) to watch, to look 
grozny (adj.) dangerous, threatening 
i (conj.) and 
idti (vi.) to go 
ih (pron.pers.) genitive or accusative of “oni” 
Indijan (m.) Indian 
iny (adj.) other 
iz (prep.) from 
izběgti (vp.) to escape, to run away 
jedin (num.) one 
jednakže (adv.) however 
jego (pron.pers.) genitive or accusative of “on” 
jej (pron.pers.) genitive or dative of “ona” 
ješče (adv.) still 
k (prep.) to, towards 
kak (adv.) how; like 
koj (pron.rel.) which 
kraj (m.) edge 
krasivy (adj.) beautiful 
krěpki (adj.) solid, firm 
kromě (prep.) except, apart from 
kupa (f.) heap, pile 
kųt (m.) corner 
list (m.) leaf 
loviteľ (m.) catcher 
ľudi (f.pl.) people 
malenki (adv.) tiny, small 
medvěď (m.) bear 
medžutym (adv.) however, meanwhile, in the meantime 
mnogo (adv.) much, a lot; very 
možno (adv.) it is possible, it may, it can 
na (prep.) on, at 
načinati (vi.) to begin, to start 
nagromaditi (vp.) to collect, to pile up 
namaľovati (vp.) to paint 
ne (adv.) not 
neočekivany (adj.) unexpectedly 
než (conj.) than 
nim (pron.pers.) instrumental of “on” or “ono” 
nos (m.) nose 
nyňe (adv.) now 
ňej (pron.pers.) genitive or dative of “ona” 
obliče (n.) face 
očekivati (vi.) to expect 
od (prep.) from 
ogromny (adj.) enormous 
okean (m.) ocean 
on (pron.pers.) he 
ona (pron.pers.) she 
oni (pron.pers.) they 
ono (pron.pers.) it 
plošča (m.) town square 
po (prep.) after; over 
podnesti (vp.) to raise, to lift up 
pojdti (vp.) to go 
polzati (vi.) to crawl 
pomaly (adj.) slow 
pot (m.) sweat 
potom (adv.) then, after that, subsequently 
pozdny (adj.) late 
pozvati (vp.) to call, to invoke 
prestrašiti (vp.) to scare, to terrify 
prijdti (vp.) to come 
prisųči (adj.) present 
prizvati (vp.) to call, to summon, to evoke 
prodavati (vi.) to sell 
råsti (vi.) to grow, to become bigger 
råzgněvati (vp.) to make angry, to infuriate 
råzrušiti (vp.) to destroy, to break into pieces 
rųka (f.) hand 
sbližati sę (vi.) to draw closer, to approach 
sę (pron.refl.) oneself 
silny (adj.) strong 
sněg (m.) snow 
son (m.) dream 
spokojny (adj.) quiet 
stanųti (vp.) to stand, to come to a halt 
stěna (f.) wall 
stråna (f.) side 
šamanica (f.) female shaman 
šel (vi.) past tense of “idti” 
takož (adv.) also, too 
těkti (vi.) to flow, to leak 
togda (adv.) then 
toj (pron.dem.) this, that 
tvoriti (vi.) to make, to create 
usměhnųti sę (vp.) to smile 
uspěti vp. to succeed, to manage 
uviděti (vp.) to see 
už (adv.) already 
večer (m.) evening 
veś, vśa (adj.) whole; all 
vęčěj (adv.) more 
voda (m.) water 
vračati (vi.) to return, to go back 
vrčěti (vi.) to growl, to roar 
vśečo (pron.ind.) everything 
vśegde (adv.) everywhere 
vśekak (adv.) anyhow, anyway 
za (prep.) behind 
zvěř (m.) animal, beast 
že (conj.) that 
žena (f.) woman 
životno (n.) animal

[[Category: Conlang Relay 18]]

Conlang Relay 18/Slovianski

2018-03-17T20:50:25Z

IJzeren Jan: Saw this one missing

Conlang Relay 17/Vozgian

2010-04-22T12:17:47Z

IJzeren Jan: Created page with '== Relay text (in Latin and Cyrillic) == === KÖNUT POLAI === <big>Monž iðin kön imäch. Kokta monžut naem vŭelezþe paitach, ele könut nanohutü vŭestal, seodetenkol i eh…'

== Relay text (in Latin and Cyrillic) ==
=== KÖNUT POLAI ===
<big>Monž iðin kön imäch. Kokta monžut naem vŭelezþe paitach, ele könut nanohutü vŭestal, seodetenkol i ehu napadel. Monžut odetond odebägel. Nasem könut kriknol, a könje taizenþa prišeli. Könje monžätum pers präbägeli, a set..... umerel.</big>

=== КÖНУТ ПОЛЫ ===
<big>Монж іђін кöн імях. Кокта монжут наем вўелезће пытах, еле кöнут наноғутю вўестал, сеодетенкол і еғу нападел. Монжут одетонд одебягел. Насем кöнут крікнол, а кöнје тызенћа прішелі. Кöнје монжятум перс прябягелі, а сет..... умерел.</big>

== Translation ==
<big>There was a man [lit: one man] who had a horse. When the man tried to climb it, however, the horse stood up on its rear legs, pulled itself away from him and attacked him. The man ran away. Subsequently, the horse yelled, and a thousands horses came. The horses ran over the man, and he..... died.</big>

== Glossary ==
{| width="100%"
|
'''a''' (conj.) and, but 
'''bägeþe''' (vp.) run 
'''ehu''' (pers.pron.) him (acc.) 
'''ele''' (conj.) but, however 
'''em''' (conj.) him (loc.) 
'''i''' (conj.) and 
'''iðin''' (num.) one 
'''imäþe''' (vi.) to have 
'''kokta''' (adv., conj.) when 
'''kön''' (m.) horse 
'''kriknoþe''' (vp.) shout, yell, scream 
'''monž''' (m.) man 
'''na-''' (prefix) on 
'''napadeþe''' (vp.) attack 
'''nasem''' (adv.) subsequently, after that
|
'''noha''' (f.) leg 
'''ode-''' (prefix) from, away from 
'''odetond''' (adv.) thence, from there 
'''paitaþe''' (vi.) try 
'''pers''' (postp.) through 
'''polai''' (adj.) evil, bad 
'''prä-''' (prefix) over, across, through 
'''prideþe''' (vp.) come, arrive 
'''se-''' (pron.refl.) -self 
'''set''' (pron.dem.) this, that 
'''taizenþa''' (num.) thousand 
'''tenkoþe''' (vp.) pull 
'''umereþe''' (vp.) die 
'''vŭelezþe''' (vp.) climb 
'''vŭestaþe''' (vp.) stand up
|}

The abbreviations "vi." and "vp." mean: "imperfective verb" and "perfective verb".

== Notes about Vozgian ==
[http://steen.free.fr/vozgian/ '''Vozgian'''] is a North-Slavic language that underwent some considerable influence from the Uralic languages. It is a highly synthetic language, mostly fusional but with agglutinative elements. Its grammar is rather complicated. I won't bother you with its (in)famous noun "declensions from hell", the numerous verbal classes, etc. I'll limit myself to the most elementary. Anyway, the text is short! :)

Word order is rigidly SOV. Nouns are inflected for gender (masculine, feminine, neuter), number (singular, dual, plural), case (13 cases), and definiteness (definite, indefinite). The latter is mostly a matter of a postfixed article; all forms in the glossary are indefinite by default. The role of prepositions is usually played by cases, prefixes, postpositions or prepositions. Modifiers (adjectives, demonstrative pronouns, numerals and the like) are always placed after whatever they modify.

In the glossary, all nouns are given in their basic form: the nominative singular (indefinite). In the text, you will encounter the following case endings:

{| width="100%"
| nouns:
'''-ätum''': m.sg.def.loc. 
'''-je''': m.pl.def.nom. 
'''-ut''': m.sg.def.nom. 
'''-utü''': m.du.def.loc.
| verbs:
'''-ch''': imperfect tense, 3sg. 
'''-l''': perfect tense, 3sg. 
'''-li''': perfect tense, 3pl. 
'''-þe''': infinitive
|}

''-- Jan van Steenbergen''

Conlang Relay 17

2010-04-22T11:16:07Z

IJzeren Jan: Simplified table somewhat; added links to final translations

Conlang Relay 17 is currently happening. [[User:DCliche|Kenner Gordon]] is running it.

Schedule:

{| class="prettytable"
! Ring A !! Ring B !! Ring C !! Ring D
|- valign="top"
|
*Kenner Gordon - ''[[Theadisch]]'' - ''[[/Theadisch|torch]]''
*Padraic Brown - ''[[Kerno]]''- ''[[/Kerno|torch]]''
*Kelvin Jackson - ''[[Karrev]]'' - ''[[/Karrev|torch]]''
*Sean Anderson - ''[http://westgermanic.co.uk West Germanic]'' - ''[[/West Germanic|torch]]''
*Peter Bleackley - ''[[Khangaþyagon]]'' - ''[[/Khangaþyagon|torch]]''
*David E - ''[http://feayran.webs.com Feayran]'' - ''[[/Feayran|torch]]''
*Mechthild Czapp - ''[http://gist.github.com/101728 Rejistanian]'' - ''[[/Rejistanian|torch]]''
*Doug Ball - ''[http://skerre.conlang.org/conlangs/skerre/skerremain.html Skerre]'' - ''[[/Skerre|torch]]''
*[[User:Dedalvs|David Peterson]] - ''[[Kamakawi]]'' - ''[[/Kamakawi|torch]]''
*Jeffrey Jones - ''[[SIAL]]'' - ''[[/SIAL|torch]]''
*Carsten Becker - ''[[Ayeri]]'' - ''[http://benung.nfshost.com/examples/txt/xmp_relay17.html torch]''
*Arthaey Angosii - ''[[Asha'ille]]'' - ''[[/Asha'ille|torch]]''
*Herman Miller - ''[http://www.io.com/~hmiller/lang/Tirelat/index.html Tirelat]'' - ''[[/Tirelat|torch]]''
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch'' - ''[[/Theadisch_final_A|final]]''
|
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch''
*John Quijada - ''[[Ithkuil]]'' - ''[[/Ithkuil|torch]]''
*Eugene Oh - ''[[Classical Arithide]]'' - ''[[/Classical Arithide|torch]]''
*Henrik Theiling - ''[[Tirkunan]]'' - ''[[/Tirkunan|torch]]''
*Danny Bowman - ''[[Angosey]]'' - ''[[/Angosey|torch]]''
*loftyd - ''[[Şärsâ]]'' - ''[[/Şärsâ|torch]]''
*Jim Taylor - ''[[Xara]]'' - ''[[/Xara|torch]]''
*Tony Harris - ''[[Tariatta]]'' - ''[[/Tariatta|torch]]''
*G.V. Pieterson - ''[[Neimalu]]'' - ''[[/Neimalu|torch]]''
*Adam Walker - ''[[Carrajena]]'' - ''[[/Carrajena|torch]]''
*Jan van Steenbergen - ''[[Wenedyk]] (passed)''
*Puey McCleary - ''[[Babel]]'' - ''[[/Babel|torch]]''
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch'' - ''[[/Theadisch_final_B|final]]''
|
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch''
*Tony Harris - ''[[Alurhsa]]'' - ''[[/Alurhsa|torch]]''
*Peter Bleackley - ''[[Iljena]]'' - ''[[/Iljena|torch]]''
*Amanda Furrow - ''[[Mirexu]]'' - ''[[/Mirexu|torch]]''
*Arthaey Angosii - ''[[Lhenazi]]'' - ''[[/Lhenazi|torch]]''
*Jan Strasser - - ''[http://www.superlush.co.uk/~akana/index.php/Buruya_Nzaysa Buruya Nzaysa]'' - ''[[/Buruya Nzaysa|torch]]''
*Eugene Oh - ''[[Zesovian]]'' - ''[[/Zesovian|torch]]''
*Kevin Urbanczyk - ''[[Proto-Drem]] (passed)''
*Andrej Šuc - ''[[Laefèvëši]]'' - ''[[/Laefèvëši|torch]]''
*Clayton Cardoso - ''[[Mabri]]'' - ''[[/Mabri|torch]]''
*René Uittenbogaard - ''[http://www.joekewoud.nl/ruittenb/calennawn/ Calénnawn]'' - ''[[/Calénnawn|torch]]''
*Jeffrey Jones - ''[[K'tlê]] (passed)''
*Deiniol Jones - ''[[Sχáskari]]'' - ''[[/Sχáskari|torch]]''
*Jan van Steenbergen - ''[[Wenedyk]]'' - ''[[/Wenedyk|torch]]''
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch'' - ''[[/Theadisch_final_C|final]]''
|
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch''
*Lars Finsen - ''[[Azurian]]'' - ''[[/Azurian|torch]]''
*Jan van Steenbergen - ''[[Vozgian]]'' - ''[[/Vozgian|torch]]''
*Sylvia Sotomayor - ''[[Kēlen]]'' - ''[[/Kēlen|torch]]''
*Padraic Brown - ''[[Talarian]]'' - ''[[/Talarian|torch]]''
*Kelvin Jackson - ''[[Vašt î Kûvik]]'' - ''[[/Vašt î Kûvik|torch]]''
*Adam Walker - ''[[Tvern El]]'' - ''[[/Tvern El|torch]]''
*Roger Mills - ''[[Prevli]]'' - ''[http://cinduworld.tripod.com/relay17_prevli.pdf torch]''
*Elliott Lash - ''[[Silindion]]'' - ''[[/Silindion|torch]]''
*Jan Strasser - ''[http://www.superlush.co.uk/~akana/index.php/Ndok_Ais%C3%B4 Ndok Aisô]'' - ''[[/Ndok Aisô|torch]]''
*Tony Hogard - ''[[Nesheti]]'' - ''[[/Nesheti|torch]]''
*Kenner Gordon - ''Theadisch'' - ''[[/Theadisch_final_D|final]]''
|}
<div style="clear:both" />

Ring D has been completed, and the rest of the rings are awaiting their final translations.

== See also: ==
* [[Conlang relay]]

[[Category:Conlang relays]]

Conlang Relay 15/Vozgian

2008-12-12T14:57:47Z

IJzeren Jan: Added Smooth translation

by Jan van Steenbergen

===The Text===

====ОБСЕРВАЦІА КОҒУСЕ УВІДШЫГУ АК ІЋЕ КРОНЖЕНЋ====

Челoвяк сет уважах, шу мястятум музикoнтјöнс спoле седвікћа, людoве ші седвікнoнћ зўoнкентямес
гoлсўo сўöјіх імяніх. Крoнженю іће кялу самoючені сoнћ. Іђенак двікћех сўöјіх іће весе дадoнћ,
чемук чінітелнoћ і мoжамoће тялесенаје іх ім дoсевўoленћ - іће правўoће крoнженћ. Семoжећ іда
прібераће, шу стил крoнженја іх нывезелешы і нылађенешы вешхез ећ. Села шу іх узюченје фoрмалену
неећ, іће седвікнoће сўoвoђенo умянћ. Іће крoнкух секрöнтенћ такак іће бялібы быће ену жіјöнћу.
Сету іх так сеченћеніћ, шу іће лећену інак дялаће немoғoнћ. А ету крoнженюм сім кoмбінаціö
пякрoће і сумoнћенoће дoдаћ, ету іхез чедусе чініћ, чеду сулöжену ећ і oржену інчедўoд.

===Romanised Text===
====OBSERVACIA KOHUSE UVIDŠAIGU AK IÞE KRONŽENÞ====

Čeloväk set uvažach, šu mästätum muzykontjöns spole sedvikþa, lüdove ši sedviknonþ zŭonkentämes
golsŭo sŭöjich imänich. Kronženü iþe kälu samoüčeni sonþ. Iðenak dvikþech sŭöjich iþe vese dadonþ,
čemuk činitelnoþ i možamoþe tälesenaje ich im dosevŭolenþ - iþe pravŭoþe kronženþ. Semožeþ ida
priberaþe, šu styl kronženja ich naivezelešai i nailaðenešai vešchez eþ. Sela šu ich uzüčenje
formalenu neeþ, iþe sedviknoþe sŭovoðeno umänþ. Iþe kronkuch sekröntenþ takak iþe bälibai baiþe
enu žijönþu. Setu ich tak sečenþeniþ, šu iþe leþenu inak dälaþe nemohonþ. A etu kronženüm sim
kombinaciö päkroþe i sumonþenoþe dodaþ, etu ichez čeduse činiþ, čedu sulöženu eþ i orženu inčedŭod.

===Smooth Translation===
====Observation of somebody who has seen them dancing====

This person noticed that instead of moving along with the music, these people are moving along with the sound of their own voices. In dancing, they are completely self-taught. Yet, in their movements they give everything their creativity and their physical possibilities allow them to; they are really dancing. One may even presume that their dancing style is the merriest and prettiest of all. Because they lack any formal education, they are able to move freely. They are whirling around in circles as if they were one living being. This makes them so happy that they just can't do it any differently. And this adds a combination of beauty and sadness to their dances, it makes them into something that is complicated and differs from anything else.

===Grammar===

Vozgian is a North-Slavic language that underwent some considerable influence from the Uralic
languages. It is a highly synthetic language, mostly fusional but with agglutinative elements.
Its grammar is rather complicated. In this relay I will not bother you with its (in)famous noun
declensions from hell, the numerous verbal classes, etc. I'll limit myself to the most elementary.

Word order is rather rigid: SOV. Nouns are inflected for gender (masculine, feminine, neuter),
number (singular, dual, plural), case (13 cases), and definiteness (definite, indefinite). The
latter is mostly a matter of a postfixed article; all forms are indefinite by default, unless
otherwise marked. In combination with demonstrative and/or possessive pronoun, the indefinite
form is normally used.

In the glossary, all nouns are given in their basic form: the nominative singular (indefinite).
In the text, you will encounter the following case endings:

*masculine:
*;-ентямес -entämes: comitative sg.def.
*;-ух -uch: locative pl.
*;-ўo -ŭo: genitive pl.
*feminine:
*;-е -e: nominative pl.
*;-е -e: genitive sg.
*;-oнтјöнс -ontjöns: comitative sg.def.
*;-ö -ö: accusative sg.
*neuter:
*;-а -a: genitive sg.
*;-ех -ech: locative pl.
*;-ю -ü: locative sg.
*;-юм -üm: dative pl.

Adjectives, as well as demonstrative pronouns, possessive pronouns, numerals etc., agree with
the noun in gender, number and case (but not in defininess, as only nouns make this distinction).
They are always placed AFTER the noun they modify. In the glossary, the masculine nominative
singular form is given, ending with -ы -ai. Apart from that, you will encounter the following
adjectival endings:
;-аје: nom/acc.pl.fem.
;-ез -ez: elative pl.
;-ешы -ešai: comparative (inflected, of course, like an adjective) (in combination with the prefix "ны-" "nai-": superlative)
;-і -i: nom.pl.masc.
;-іх -ich: gen.pl.
;-у -u: nom.sg.neut.
;-ыгу -aigu: gen.sg.masc/neut.

Verbs are inflected for person, number, tense, and mood. Verbal paradigmata in Vozgian are
pretty huge, but let's keep it simple. In the glossary, verbs are giving in the infintive
(ending: -ће -þe). In this text, the following forms appear:
;-х -ch: past tense, 3sg
;-ібы -ibai: conditional, 3pl
;-нћ -nþ: present tense, 3pl
;-ћ -þ: present tense, 3sg

Besides, we have a few participles. These are inflected like adjectives. The masculine
nominative singular endings are:
;-нћы -nþai: present active participle
;-ны -nai: perfect passive participle
;-шы -šai: perfect active participle

In the case of irregularities, you will find both forms in the glossary: the irregular form
as used in the text, and the "basic" form. Where it comes to pronouns, I have decided to give
all pronouns used in this text a separate entry in the glossary, as most of them are
irregular anyway.

When a verb is reflexive, the reflexive pronoun "се-" "se-" is prefixed to the verb. As pro-drop
is not allowed in Vozgian, when a reflexive verb appears without a subject, this implies and
impersonal subject: "one can see...", "it is said that...", etc.

When a verb is negated, this is also indicated with the help of a prefix: "не-" "ne-".

Unlike Russian, Vozgian has a fully inflected and pretty irregular verb "to be": "быће" "baiþe". But
just like Russian, Vozgian lacks a word for "to have". Instead, the genitive is used in
combation with a form of "быће" "baiþe". So instead of "I have two parrots", the Vozgians say: "Mine
are two parrots" (actually, more literally: "Mine parrots two are", but that's a different
story).

That's all I can think of for now. So let's move on to the glossary...

===Glossary===

Keep in mind that I follow Cyrillic alphabetisation here!

;а a: (conj) and, but
;ак ak: (adv, conj) how, in what way, like
;быће baiþe: (n) being, creature
;быће baiþe: (v) to be
:бялібы bälibai: (v) cond.3pl. of "быће"
;везелы vezelai: (adj) merry, joyful
;весе vese: (pron.ind.) all, everything
;вешхы vešchai: (adj) every, all
;гoлс gols: (m) voice
;дадoнћ dadonþ: (v) pres.3pl. of "даће"
;даће daþe: (v) to give
:дoдаће dodaþe: (v) to add, to give to
;двікнoће dviknoþe: (v) to move
;двікће dvikþe: (n) movement; moving
;дoсевўoліће dosevŭoliþe: (v) to permit, to allow
;дялаће dälaþe: (v) to do, to make
;ену enu: (num.card.) nom.sg.neut. of "іђін" "iðin"
;ету etu: (pron.pers.) it
;ећ eþ: (v) pres.3sg. of "быће" "baithe"
;жіће žiþe: (v) to live
;зўoнк zŭonk: (m) sound
;іђенак iðenak: (adv) yet, however
;іђін iðin: (num.card.) one
;імяны imänai: (adj) own
;і i: (conj) and
;іда ida: (adv) even
;ім im: (pron.pers.) dative of "іће" "iðe"
;інак inak: (adv) otherwise, else, in another way
;інчеду inčedu: (pron.ind.) something else, anything else
;інчедўoд inčeduod: (pron.ind.) ablative of "інчеду" "inčedu"
;іће iþe: (pron.pers.) they
;іх ich: (pron.pers.) genitive of "іће" "iþe"
;іхез ichez: (pron.pers.) elative of "іће" "iþe"
;кялу kälu: (adv) wholly, entirely
;кедусе keduse: (pron.ind.) someone, somebody
;кoғусе kohuse: (pron.ind.) genitive of "кедусе" "keduse"
;кoмбінаціа kombinacia: (f) combination
;крoнженје kronženje: (n) dance; dancing
;крoнжіће kronžiþe: (v) to dance
;крoнк kronk: (m) circle
;крöнтіће krontiþe: (v) to turn, to spin
;лађены laðenai: (adj) nice, pretty
;лећену leþenu: (adv) easily, simply, just
;людoве lüdove: (m.pl.) people
;мoғoнћ mohonþ: (v) pres.3pl. of "мöхће" "mochþe"
;мoжамoћ možamoþ: (f) possibility
;мoжећ možeþ: (v) pres.3sg. of "мöхће" "mochþe"
;мöхће mochþe: (v) can, may, be able
;музика muzyka: (f) music
;мястятум mästätum: (prep with gen.) instead of
;не- ne: (prefix) not
;ны- nai: (prefix) superlative marker
;oбсерваціа observacia: (f) observation
;oржены orženai: (adj) different
;правўoће pravŭoþe: (adv) really, truly
;прібераће priberaþe: (v) assume, suppose
;пякрoћ päkroþ: (f) beauty
;самo- samo-: (prefix) self-
;се- se: (pron.refl.) oneself
;села sela: (adv) for this reason
;села шу sela šu: (conj) because
;сет set: (pron.dem.) this
;сету setu: (pron.dem.) nom.sg.neut. of "сет" "set"
;сеченћеніће sečenþeniþe: (v) to make happy
;сім sim: (pron.dem.) dat.pl. of "сет" "set"
;сoнћ sonþ: (v) pres.3pl. of "быће" "baithe"
;спoле spole: (adv, postp with comitative) together (with), along (with)
;стил stil: (m) style
;сулöжены sulöženai: (adj) complicated, complex
;сумoнћенoћ sumonþenoþ: (f) sadness
;сўoвoђенo sŭovoðeno: (adv) freely, liberally
;сўöй sŭöj: (pron.poss.) one’s own
;так tak: (adv) so, in such way
;такак takak: (conj) so that; as if
;тялесены tälesenai: (adj) physical, pertaining to the body
;уважаће uvažaþe: (v) to notice
;увідеће uvideþe: (v) to see (perfective)
;узюченје uzüčenje: (n) education
;умяће umäþe: (v) to be able, to know how to
;фoрмалены formalenai: (adj) formal
;чеду čedu: (pron.int.) what
;чедусе čeduse: (pron.ind.) something
;челoвяк čeloväk: (m) human being, person
;чемук čemuk: (pron.int.) allative of "чеду" "čedu"
;чінітелнoћ činitelnoþ: (f) creativity
;чініће činiþe: (v) to make, to create
;ші ši: (pron.dem.) nom.pl.masc. of "сет" "set"
;шу šu: (conj) that
;ючіће üčiþe: (v) to teach

Conlan Relay 16

2008-11-11T20:12:08Z

IJzeren Jan:

Here's the current schedule. The dates are when the torch should be expected. The translations back into Ithkuil should take some time.

{|
|
|'''A'''
|'''B'''
|'''C'''
|-
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Thu Oct 23
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Albic|Old Albic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kamakawi|Kamakawi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kélen|Kélen]]
|-
!Sat Oct 25
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Neimalu|Neimalu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Classical Arithide|Cl. Arithide]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Asha'ille|Asha'ille]]
|-
!Mon Oct 27
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Xara|Xara]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Taruven|Taruven]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pinuyo|Pinuyo]]
|-
!Wed Oct 29
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pilovese|Pilovese]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Slovianski|Slovianski]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/A:jat he-Heloun|A:jat he-Heloun]]
|-
!Fri Oct 31
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/West Germanic|West Germanic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Urianian|Urianian]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Naisek|Naisek]]
|-
!Sun Nov 2
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Nesheti|Nesheti]] D
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Tükwäi|Old Tükwäi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Vetela|Vetela]]
|-
!Tue Nov 4
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Terkunan|Terkunan]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Khangaþyagon|Khangaþyagon]]
|-
!Thu Nov 6
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Wenedyk/Vozgian|<s>Wenedyk</s>/Vozgian]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Tirelat|Tirelat]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Gwr|Gwr]]
|-
!Sat Nov 8
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Sabasasaj|Sabasasaj]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/'Yemls/Vallés|'Yemls/Vallés]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Azurian|Azurian]]
|-
!Mon Nov 10
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mirexu|mirexu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Silindion|Silindion]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Limciela|Limciela]] T
|-
!Wed Nov 12
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/iljena|iljena]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Prevli/Kash|Prevli/Kash]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Þrjótrunn|Þrjótrunn]]
|-
!Fri Nov 14
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Suraetua|Suraetua]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mabri|mabri]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Escinet|Escinet]]
|-
!Sun Nov 16
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/gjâ-zym-byn|gjâ-zym-byn]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Tue Nov 18
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|
|}

"T" indicates where the torch is thought to be. "D" = dropped.
Asterisks indicate unconfirmed alterations to the schedule. However, should it conform to everyone's needs, this will be the final schedule.

[[Category:Conlang relays]]

Conlan Relay 16

2008-11-11T20:10:57Z

IJzeren Jan: Ring A

Here's the current schedule. The dates are when the torch should be expected. The translations back into Ithkuil should take some time.

{|
|
|'''A'''
|'''B'''
|'''C'''
|-
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Thu Oct 23
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Albic|Old Albic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kamakawi|Kamakawi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kélen|Kélen]]
|-
!Sat Oct 25
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Neimalu|Neimalu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Classical Arithide|Cl. Arithide]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Asha'ille|Asha'ille]]
|-
!Mon Oct 27
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Xara|Xara]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Taruven|Taruven]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pinuyo|Pinuyo]]
|-
!Wed Oct 29
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pilovese|Pilovese]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Slovianski|Slovianski]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/A:jat he-Heloun|A:jat he-Heloun]]
|-
!Fri Oct 31
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/West Germanic|West Germanic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Urianian|Urianian]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Naisek|Naisek]]
|-
!Sun Nov 2
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Nesheti|Nesheti]] D
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Tükwäi|Old Tükwäi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Vetela|Vetela]]
|-
!Tue Nov 4
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Terkunan|Terkunan]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Khangaþyagon|Khangaþyagon]]
|-
!Thu Nov 6
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Wenedyk/Vozgian|Wenedyk/Vozgian]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Tirelat|Tirelat]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Gwr|Gwr]]
|-
!Sat Nov 8
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Sabasasaj|Sabasasaj]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/'Yemls/Vallés|'Yemls/Vallés]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Azurian|Azurian]]
|-
!Mon Nov 10
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mirexu|mirexu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Silindion|Silindion]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Limciela|Limciela]] T
|-
!Wed Nov 12
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/iljena|iljena]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Prevli/Kash|Prevli/Kash]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Þrjótrunn|Þrjótrunn]]
|-
!Fri Nov 14
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Suraetua|Suraetua]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mabri|mabri]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Escinet|Escinet]]
|-
!Sun Nov 16
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/gjâ-zym-byn|gjâ-zym-byn]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Tue Nov 18
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|
|}

"T" indicates where the torch is thought to be. "D" = dropped.
Asterisks indicate unconfirmed alterations to the schedule. However, should it conform to everyone's needs, this will be the final schedule.

[[Category:Conlang relays]]

Conlan Relay 16

2008-11-05T13:34:52Z

IJzeren Jan: Update Torch B

Here's the current schedule. The dates are when the torch should be expected. The translations back into Ithkuil should take some time.

{|
|
|'''A'''
|'''B'''
|'''C'''
|-
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Thu Oct 23
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Albic|Old Albic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kamakawi|Kamakawi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Kélen|Kélen]]
|-
!Sat Oct 25
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Neimalu|Neimalu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Classical Arithide|Cl. Arithide]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Asha'ille|Asha'ille]]
|-
!Mon Oct 27
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Xara|Xara]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Taruven|Taruven]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pinuyo|Pinuyo]]
|-
!Wed Oct 29
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Pilovese|Pilovese]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Slovianski|Slovianski]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/A:jat he-Heloun|A:jat he-Heloun]]
|-
!Fri Oct 31
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/West Germanic|West Germanic]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Urianian|Urianian]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Naisek|Naisek]]
|-
!Sun Nov 2
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Nesheti|Nesheti]] T
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Old Tükwäi|Old Tükwäi]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Vetela|Vetela]] T
|-
!Tue Nov 4
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Terkunan|Terkunan]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Khangaþyagon|Khangaþyagon]]*
|-
!Thu Nov 6
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Wenedyk/Vozgian|Wenedyk/Vozgian]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Tirelat|Tirelat]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Gwr|Gwr]]*
|-
!Sat Nov 8
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Sabasasaj|Sabasasaj]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/'Yemls/Vallés|'Yemls/Vallés]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Azurian|Azurian]]
|-
!Mon Nov 10
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mirexu|mirexu]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Silindion|Silindion]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Limciela|Limciela]]
|-
!Wed Nov 12
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/iljena|iljena]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Prevli/Kash|Prevli/Kash]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Þrjótrunn|Þrjótrunn]]
|-
!Fri Nov 14
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Suraetua|Suraetua]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/mabri|mabri]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Escinet|Escinet]]
|-
!Sun Nov 16
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/gjâ-zym-byn|gjâ-zym-byn]]
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|-
!Tue Nov 18
|
|[[Conlang Translation Relay 16/Ithkuil|Ithkuil]]
|
|}

"T" indicates where the torch is thought to be.
Asterisks indicate unconfirmed alterations to the schedule. However, should it conform to everyone's needs, this will be the final schedule.

[[Category:Conlang relays]]

Kharos Sfik

2006-01-14T17:55:46Z

IJzeren Jan:

#REDIRECT [[Kharos S'fik]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:30:41Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Calénnawn */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Minza|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="45%" valign="top" |
===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"
|
===He observes and talks?!===
; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"
|}

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen|here]] for details.''

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===Kēlen===

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;
|
===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!
|}

==Rokbeigalmki==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"
|
===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"
|}

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".
|
===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."
|}

==Calénnawn==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="55%" valign="top" |
===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"
| valign="top" |
===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"
|}

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:28:39Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Toma Heylm */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Minza|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="45%" valign="top" |
===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"
|
===He observes and talks?!===
; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"
|}

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen|here]] for details.''

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===Kēlen===

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;
|
===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!
|}

==Rokbeigalmki==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"
|
===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"
|}

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".
|
===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."
|}

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:27:34Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Rokbeigalmki */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Minza|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"
|
===He observes and talks?!===
; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"
|}

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen|here]] for details.''

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

{| width="100%"
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===Kēlen===

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;
|
===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!
|}

==Rokbeigalmki==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
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===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"
|
===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"
|}

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:25:27Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Kēlen */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Minza|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="45%" valign="top" |
===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"
|
===He observes and talks?!===
; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"
|}

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen|here]] for details.''

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===Kēlen===

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;
|
===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!
|}

==Rokbeigalmki==

===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"

===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki]]

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:23:48Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Minza */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Minza|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="45%" valign="top" |
===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"
|
===He observes and talks?!===
; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"
|}

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

===Kēlen===

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;

===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen]]

==Rokbeigalmki==

===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"

===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki]]

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:22:10Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Da Mätz Se Basa */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===De kuk un kuja ja he===
; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"
|
===It looks and talks!?===
; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!
|}

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===

; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"

===He observes and talks?!===

; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Minza]]

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

===Kēlen===

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;

===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen]]

==Rokbeigalmki==

===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"

===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki]]

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:20:43Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Klingon */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."
|
===Look! Someone is talking!===
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."
|}

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

===De kuk un kuja ja he===

; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"

===It looks and talks!?===

; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa]]

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===

; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"

===He observes and talks?!===

; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Minza]]

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

===Kēlen===

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;

===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen]]

==Rokbeigalmki==

===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"

===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki]]

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-13T16:19:00Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Wenedyk */

=Relay 12=

This relay was a scheduleless relay run by Jeffrey Henning. Unfortunately, Jeffrey completely disappeared during the course of the relay, which is quite eldritch. We all hope he is well and found no time for the relay only because he is involved in real-life occupations.

This page aims at gathering the texts of relay 12.

==Order of participants==

Apparent order of participants in this relay was:

*Jeffrey Hennning, [[Conlang Relay 12#Zyvlusda|Zyvlusda]]
*Philip Newton, [[Conlang Relay 12#Klingon|Klingon]]
*Rebecca Harbison, [[Conlang Relay 12#Darynese|Darynese]]
*Henrik Theiling, [[Conlang Relay 12#Da Mätz Se Basa|Da Mätz Se Basa]]
*Jan van Steenbergen, [[Conlang Relay 12#Wenedyk|Wenedyk]]
*Herman Miller, [[Conlang Relay 12#Minza|Minza]]
*Benct Philip Jonsson, [[Conlang Relay 12#Mærik|Mærik]]
*Sylvia Sotomayor, [[Conlang Relay 12#Kēlen|Kēlen]]
*Steg Belsky, [[Conlang Relay 12#Rokbeigalmki|Rokbeigalmki]]
*Adam Walker, [[Conlang Relay 12#Carrajena|Carrajena]]
*Amanda Babcock Furrow, [[Conlang Relay 12#Toma Heylm|Toma Heylm]]
*René Uittenbogaard, [[Conlang Relay 12#Calénnawn|Calénnawn]]
*Jonathan North Washington, [[Conlang Relay 12#Tæĺf|Tæĺf]]
*Yann Kiraly, [[Conlang Relay 12#nala na ti ka'i|nala na ti ka'i]]
*Phurrball, [[Conlang Relay 12#Etora|Etora]]
*Angel Serrano, [[Conlang Relay 12#Aingelja|Aingelja]]
*P. A. Kramm, [[Conlang Relay 12#Dewagistarah|Dewagistarah]]

Arthaey Angosii also did a translation from Minza into [[Conlang Relay 12#Asha'ille|Asha'ille]], but had to drop out.

[http://www.kunstsprachen.de/relay11/ Previous Relay 11 (Irina Rempt)]
[http://www.conlang.info/relay/relay13.html Next Relay 13 (Henrik Theiling)]

==Zyvlusda==

(as received by Philip)

===Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer===

; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutsaleb : Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Pankesid : Raralar!
; Gutsaleb : Gutpodin move, o relpodin. Ukakip kepazu. Busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Pankesid : Raralar!!
; Gutsaleb : Dinep suke serobe.
; Gutpodin : Vuvufuv, ak anam bina unt ak fule a akgezer.
; Gutsaleb : Raralar!!!
; Pankesid : Fifivif?
; Gutsaleb : Sosozos, busi, o relpodin, busi!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.
; Gutpodin : Dispodin izekpuvir keni disevi kenmi i ak? Sudira ak teba lasuba kafkenmi a esvatra.
; Pankesid : Zekpodin vute?
; Gutpodin : Liliril, o fozfe, ak suke lebgefvu e ul. Ak anam asograkef lasa makid e "Vymtutie". Ilas inam maki ak i ulgibin. Alagas rilisa.
; Pankesid : Akgibin suke diseve dipba. Lebta azekrakif puve akgibin?
; Gutsaleb : Akvatra suke kepaze esvatra e unt ak dibo gutboreg.
; Gutpodin : Ak sura tinra e makid e Rekio. Ulgibin suke lasube makid. Maki ak "Rekio".
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Ak suke ferdarole, teas ak unam - mumunum - babferu.
; Gutsaleb : Dozi logtenbei, sosozos, Rekio.
; Gutpodin : A zobzoa tuske ak fera bufferyb.
; Pankesid : Nenemen!
; Gutpodin : Nenemen!
; Lebkesid : Suku bobaru, o pezdagli.

Kafmonit e dopuze lekmonit a lapugu lekzi mone, "Gutpodin Guta Vuta: Fulvuta Zyvgezer."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Zyvlusda]]

==Klingon==

===yIbej! jatlh vay'!===

; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : yIyuvtaH, chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; ghojmoq : ghu nach vIleghlaH, chaj. tlhoS Data'pu'. yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghojmoq : narghbejpu' nach.
; ghu : toH. Daqvam vIlegh not 'e' vIQub.
; ghojmoq : ghuy'cha'!
; be'nal : qaS nuq?
; ghojmoq : yIqImHa'! yIyuvqa', chaj, yIyuvtaH!
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!
; ghu : jIHvaD Sut yItuQmoH! roD Sut Doj wItuQ.
; be'nal : jatlhtaH 'Iv?
; ghu : HI'Ij, SoS. puqloDlI' jIH. pong "qonnor" vIpar. 'Iq pongvam lughajbogh ghot'e'.
; be'nal : wItojlu'law'. chay' jatlh loDHom?
; ghojmoq : DaH SoS ghu je rarbogh tlhegh'e' vIpe'ta'.
; ghu : Heghpu'bogh SuvwI' vISov. "petroS" 'oH pongDaj'e'. QaQ pongvam. jIHvaD "petroS" yIpong!
; ghu : jI'oj, 'ach rolIjDaq jItlhutlhQo'.
; ghojmoq : yIvIHQo', petroS.
; ghu : Hut wen, 'Iw HIq vItlhutlh.
; loDnal : Qapla'! yIyoH!

jaj veb, ghItlh ja'wI', jatlh: "boghpu' jatlhlaHbogh ghu! Suto'vo'qor Del."

===Look! Someone is talking!===

; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : Push, dear, push!
; Nurse : I can see the baby's head, dear. You have nearly accomplished it. Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Nurse : The head has definitely appeared.
; Baby : Well. I never thought I would see this place.
; Nurse : *@$%!
; Wife : What's happening?
; Nurse : Pay no attention! Push again, dear, push!
; Husband : Success! Be brave!
; Baby : Put clothes on me! I used to wear impressive clothing.
; Wife : Who's talking?
; Baby : Listen to me, mother! I'm your son. I dislike the name "Kon'nor". There are too many people who have that name.
; Wife : Somebody seems to be tricking us. How does the boy speak?
; Nurse : I have now successfully cut through the cord which connects the mother and the child.
; Baby : I know a dead warrior; his name was "Pet'rosh". That name is good. Call me "Pet'rosh"!
; Baby : I am thirsty, but I refuse to drink at your torso.
; Nurse : Don't move, Pet'rosh.
; Baby : Nine months ago, I drank bloodwine.
; Husband : Success! Be brave!

The next day, a reporter wrote, saying: "A baby that could speak was born! It
described Sto-vo-kor."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Klingon]]

==Darynese==

===Dorunyaera! Nyaram, ilaetraenyaera!===

; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Saerai : Saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Saerai : Yaetai! Emilonaime mati dorusetas raikae. Yaemi deles se daibe!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : A! Teoro dorunyaetas raokae!
; Saerai : rarurileyiza!
; Mizaebaiai : Latrimaelnaor?
; Saerai : Pasaeranyaepara! Aesem saenyanyaera! Yaetai! saenyanyaera!
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!
; Emilo : Raokae taekonyaera! Yaope tazembo ranneos teonzanyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiai : Taeyinnaor ilaetraese?
; Emilo : Eyilai. Raokaekul laemtraenyaera. Daibenaimao ineyilao zaitrinyae raokae. 'Konor' tusreonyaepa raokae. Taenae menyae yaemi.
; Mizaebaiai : Nanenaor? Ilaetraese emilo!
; Saerai : Emilseyai sem datae raikae.
; Emilo : Nenkenaimeo naer leobysunyae raokae. Yilae aon leobysunyae raokae.'Petros' zaitrinyae raokaenaimae aon.
; Emilo : Aotaelao menyae raokae. Subenyai, ilaoba zelnelonyaepa raokae.
; Saerai : Petros! Ebenyaepara!
; Emilo : Ner trais binyin keoru, saisinsu zelnelonyae raokae.
; Mizaebaiao : Marinyaera!

Ereo mokeorul donyose donyoao -- 'Ilaetraerilo emilo! Taomaenaime kaodi!'

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Darynese]]

==Da Mätz Se Basa==

===De kuk un kuja ja he===

; Ä Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Doto : Ü drük to. Muin Quän, ü drük to. Muin Quän, ich kan da Bäbi s' Kop ol sä höma. Ü hat de bäna saf ja.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Säo, ich kan de hir Urt sä ima.
; Doto : Chofadem!
; Quän : Wat is he?
; Doto : Ü wot nich bang nä to. Ü drük noma to, muin Quän, ü drük to.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
; Bäbi : Ich wil wat dräk an höma. Ich drach of gui Zuich ja.
; Quän : De kan kuja ima.
; Bäbi : Diu fan Modo hur ma ze to. Ich is duin Anak. Un ich wil nich "Konol" heis nä höma, omdat de ze tawal is ja.
; Quän : De do is ne Drik he. De Bäbi kuja he.
; Doto : Ich wirt gätz de Nalsur snä dur.
; Bäbi : Ich hat na Gäral se Maut hat. Un ich hat ne hau Nam ja, nämich heis ich "Pädrus". Un ich hat ne Durs ja, ma ich wil kein Nai nä höma.
; Doto : Pädrus, diu zape nich säo nä to.
; Bäbi: Di lätz ach Mat hat ich ne Woka drik.
; Man : Diu häl dur to.
Ana näs Dach sir di Sir-Mätz: "Ne kuja s' Bäbi höma! Ne da Got se Sänk ja!"

===It looks and talks!?===

; Husband : Persevere!
; Doctor : Push! Madam, push! Madam, I can see the baby's head already! You have almost done it!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : Well! I can see this place, right!?
; Doctor : Damnit!
; Woman : What is it?
; Doctor : Don't get disturbed! Push again, madam, push again!
; Man : Persevere!
; Baby : I want to wear something! I often wear precious clothes!
; Woman : It can talk!?
; Baby : Mother, listen to me! I am your son. And I don't want to be called 'Konor', because that's too common.
; Woman : This is a trick, right? The baby talks!?
; Doctor : I will now cut the umbilical cord.
; Baby : I had a general's death. And I have a good name, that is, I'm called 'Petrus'. And I am thirsty, but I don't want any milk.
; Doctor : Petrus, don't squirm like that!
; Baby : The last eight months I drank vodka.
; Man : Persevere!

The next day, the writers wrote: A talking baby! A gift of God indeed!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Da Mätz Se Basa]]

== Wenedyk ==

''Click [[Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk|here]] for details.''

{| width="100%"
| width="50%" valign="top" |
=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''
|
=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===
; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''
|}

==Minza==

===IPLIMU AI IŠONU?!===

; Xažla: Mimo!
; Čaghyl: Taugho xöy, seira nataughi öyxe! Šöy łe, kazmi kaini ymigi lan rašat! Teka omba öyxu sinatemu aka nymat.
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Šöy ze, kazmi ymigi tan'ga, đa riteka jexu.
; Xažla: Igá!
; Kövu: Kala čui?
; Čaghyl: Tego łe naziri. Seira nataughi xöy, seira nataughi!
; Xažla: Mimo!
; Raša: Ymagha šöy kö čilaskat. Wei! Yđevu čilas fynarit beži kame!
; Kövu: Zmi išoni va!
; Raša: Duro tö, i viraka. Kari raša öyxat. Ła ymagha de ynšadi šy Konušat, šöy ze de, ži vyönu ghovi nöki nyn.
; Kövu: Ri nevek đa yglibu wöli ghovi kame ža. Fie đa šona rašale?
; Čaghyl: Yreka šöy zörin nalanavat.
; Raša: Vyö xörykakamu, katuonžananu, našara. Epi kamu loga teski, fie ynšadu šy Petrosat. Ai ymaghi yglibi, i peš, ła ymaghu de yglibi kura öli kame!
; Xažla: I Petros, xisčo kaini möghas šy rylat, i öyx!
; Raša: Đo ličimu paže vige, ygliba de lašeunat....
; Xažla: Mimo!
Lišu zy jagu nauke lišyle: "MOZU ŠONYLI! MOREVANU LUGHI VA!"

===He observes and talks?!===

; Man: Persist!
; Doctor: Push, madam, you need to push! Now, I can already see the baby's head! You almost have the whole of the event in your past.
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Well, now I can see the place where we are.
; Man: What the...!
; Woman: What's happening?
; Doctor: Please don't be afraid. You must push, madam, you must push!
; Man: Persist!
; Baby: Now I want something to wear. Hey! I am accustomed to wearing expensive clothes!
; Woman: He can talk!
; Baby: Now listen, my mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called Konush, well not now, since that is much too ordinary.
; Woman: It's because I drank too much [alcohol], isn't it? That the baby is talking?
; Doctor: I am now cutting his umbilical cord.
; Baby: Before my death, I was a general, you know. I also had a fine name; I called myself Peter. And I want to drink, you fiend, but I don't want any milk!
; Man: Peter, stop squirming like a worm already, you!
; Baby: For the last eight months, I was not drinking any vodka [lit. "firewater"]....
; Man: Persist!

A writer wrote the next day: "Talking baby! He is a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Minza]]

==Mærik==

==Kēlen==

===Kēlen===

This text contains ā (a-macron), ē (e-macron), ī (i-macron), ō (o-macron), ū (u-macron), ñ (n-tilde), þ (thorn), λ (lambda), and ŋŋ (double-eng)

tema jāo ē mo sarōña ē mo sasāra;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temme ke māltanen ien lāmacēna ñarra jacētti kā; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; cēja
anele mīsa sōlle mo lerōña; ñi antamōl antōrren anniþen;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien cēja anele jasōþa þō mo lerōña;

temme ke mārja ien kēñ?

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo ja-kēñ?

temme ke māltanen ien pa riēn anmīra wē; hēja ñarra jacētti kā; lāmacēna ñarra
jacētti kā;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

temirne ke mīsa ien sele ankīña pa jīλīke; ē lā, luhañen pa liēn jīλīke
jawālen;

temirne ke macēna ien cēja ñamma ansōri lā!

temme ke mīsa ien lā-mālmara. la liēn mīs-ēri; cēxeja rehirnele jawēra kōnux
wā tō la jawēra jaŋŋīra nāpie;

temirne ke macēna ien an jāo to anhēŋŋi nāpie; tamma ke mīsa ja-kēñ?

temirne ke māltanen ien cēja analla anpēra mo sasērja japūsa;

temirne antēli ke mīsa ien il anniþen ñi liēn janōña il la liēn macōnōn
matōntanen; ē pa liēn jawēra ancāla nā ē tele jawēra pīter; ī sele ankīña pa
jahēña lā-mapīññennon ew wā sele ankīña pa ankāλi honahan.

temme ke mārja ien lā-pīter wa riēn mañiwēλa ñe japīla;

temirne ke mīsa ien wā sele anhamāri il jasēllūi ānor;

temme ke mārja ien ñereñ makēspen cī;

il jalōna antielen il tamma jīlke ke manahan ien pa mīsa ansōri lā; la jalīla
jakēra lā;

===English===

This was seen (by someone) and heard.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the healer (to the woman): Woman, make pushes. You must make pushes. I can see the baby's head. The birth becomes over soon.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I can see this place.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Huh?

Said the woman (to all present): What is it?

Said the healer (to the woman): Don't have fear. You must make pushes.
Woman, you must push.

Said the grandmother (to the woman): make yourself steadfast.

Said the baby (to all present): I wish for clothes. Hey, usually I have expensive clothes.

Said the woman (to all present): He can make words!

Said the baby (to the woman): My mother. I am your baby. Hopefully you (the clan) will not give me the name Konush because it is a too common name.

Said the woman (to all present): This is from too much beer. What did the baby (say)?

Said the healer (to all present): I can cut the navel cord (now).

Said the baby (to all present) the facts: Before I became dead, I was a high-ranking soldier. I had a valuable name and the name was Piter. And, I want a drink, you monster, but I don't want any milk.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): Piter, don't be a wiggler like a worm.

Said the baby (to all present): I haven't had whiskey in 8 'months'.

Said the grandmother (to the baby): make yourself steadfast.

The next day, someone wrote: The baby has words! It's a holy gift!

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Kēlen]]

==Rokbeigalmki==

===Rokbeigalmki===

za'dhaz t̂ahaot̂ahao fa'waur khaz fa'waur thwel uzú.

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-i-mald-a! eze-dabrol! eze-beig wa'dabrol; aza-kaun wa'khaz sha'uth-a tze-a ya'ekham — t̂epb̂ard-a uza-telb!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun wa'khaz a-kaz."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ha'—?"

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa dhu?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "eze'nyih-telos — eza-beig wa'dabrol! eze-dabrol, ei-i-mald-a, ezé!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "azoi-shus sha'nguhraash; i uzoi-vek wa'tezat oolu-dawaz-ad elikuh-tub!"

mald-a izu-chayik, "uhzoi-kaun wa'gũb!"

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "ei-maba ei-tzii-a, eze'nyih-dasyem ash kónush kha; sem ilúka sudstamb uz."

mald-a izu-guvdhab, "hawa uzú? ha'azu-dagul sha'lip sudzid?"

datãv-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-kaun taz wa'oojhg tzuh chong oungki."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "tawa ga'azii-met, matóntanen ta'r̂engôktadhm-a azíí -- i tzii sem, píder, uzii-tein kurad-ad-tzat. ei-miplatz-a! aza-shus wa'dagul tahao, akh nyeng sha'lẽĩl nilmao!"

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "ei-píder, eze'nyih-kemet ka'yagul yag-ad."

uth-a uhzu-guvdhab, "aza-shus anhamári nga'tei mefsatm ta'tratz-a."

gaheish-a izu-guvdhab, "sudoitr kha ezé!"

ta'rezat-a oolu-dume, uzu-thes-ad ya'tazao: "uth uhzu-gũb. daalnad sudahya uhzú!"

===English===

This was something to see and hear.

The [female] elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The healer said, "Woman! Push out! You must push out; I can see your baby with my eyes — the end of the birth is coming closer!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I can see here."

The elder said, "Is—?" (or: "Huh?")

The woman said, "What's that?"

The healer said, "Do not fear — you need to push out! Push out, woman, do it!"

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The baby said, "I want clothing (or: a sarong); and it must be well-made!"

The woman screamed, "[The baby] can communicate!"

The baby said, "My mom, please do not name me Kónush; it's such an ordinary name."

The woman said, "What was it? Did I drink too much wine?"

The healer said, "I can now cut [the baby]'s 'womb-stem'."

The baby said, "When I die, I will be a ''matóntanen'' in the order of warriors — and my name, Píder, will have honor. Hey monster! I want to drink something, but not at all any mother's milk!"

The elder said, "Píder, don't spasm like a fished fish."

The baby said, "I want ''anhamári'' that's at least eight months old."

The elder said, "Please be persevering!"

The following day, it was written by someone: "A baby communicated. [The baby] was a holy gift!"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Rokbeigalmki]]

==Carrajena==

(as received by Amanda Babcock Furrow)

===Carrajena===

This text contains ñ (n-tilde), « (double open
brackets), » (double closed brackets), ¿ (inverted
question mark), ¡ (inverted exclamation point)

THE TEXT

Esti ul fistu junu minchu miravuisimu.

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched al jalada, «¡Forchi, huiña! Nexida nadari.
Podju videri ul bambinu cun uls ocuus. Tembra
compuedejid il nadali.”

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperei!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Podju videri ul fistu mundu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¿Man?»

Diched al huiña, «¿Esti?»

Diched al jalada, «Nu timi. Nexida forchari.
¡Forchi, huiña!»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru junu coxudu, ed nexidad bini
nifaladud.»

Firidud al huiña, «¡Ajovid!»

Diched ul bambinu, «Marri miu, nu cuami mi juni numi
pomu ul Cunux, pervia esti medjogri.»

Diched al huiña, «¿Fid esti? Bivi ul vinu tan mutu.»

Diched al jalada, «Agora, podju currari ad il fumi
umbuigu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Pochini morriju, eseju ul
djinerali, ed undrajid il mi numi, ul Perru. Feru
siñunu, junu bivudu, peru ¡nun lapi!»

Diched al presbideja, «Nu fali ils spazmis pomu juni
pixi in ul molu.»

Diched ul bambinu, «Feru juni cauxi djul vinu djils
opu minchis maduradu.»

Diched al presbideja, «¡Esperi!»

Il dji debosti, niscrived, «Diched ul bambinu, <Fuid
juni nudji sampi.>»

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Carrajena]]

==Toma Heylm==

===Toma Heylm===

akot edra ey anyelis tamya.

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kusot seta tomil "anya, file! lo sokril simelal! eff tisanot kipayu nes oleye efim. lo delye silkot oriya syin simelalu."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff tisanyik dampeyu edra".

syin rigyana seta tomil "aa?".

syin anya seta tomil "ure?".

syin kusot seta tomil "lo delye mi kakrot lek. lo sokril filet. file!"

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok sipoyu, lir syim delye mi marelis".

syin anya seta tamot "sem seta tomyok!".

syin kipa seta tomil "haya efim, lo delye datil lek tef operu yiv "Cunux", tal sem ey sureli".

syin anya seta tomil "ure dava keryik? eff seta sipil fhasayu tamamelis".

syin kusot seta tomil "eff kardot kastet hiya biliyu".

syin kipa seta tomil "tarya eff delye elyik dodeyi, eff delye kupra, lir Petra delye haldyik operu efim. eff sokryok bolgeyu lir syin sipetu, rel eff delye sipyok lek rumiyu".

syin rigyana seta tomil "lo delye mi tulyik lek yiv kuyon la yumela".

syin kipa seta tomil "eff sokryok topayu mini fhasa seta fharot dolva okostel."

syin rigyana seta tomil "lhi delye sa testdre!".

elyi seta peyrai yumola kareli "syin kipa seta tomil 'edra seta todat rigeli'".

===English===

This story is very marvelous.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with my eyes. You will soon complete the birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket, and it should be well-made."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, you will not give me a name like 'Cunux', because it is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife said, "Now I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I should die [lit: become dead], I would be a military general, and Peter will honor my name. I need a monster and a drink, but I won't drink milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on the dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has fermented eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote the next day, "The baby said 'This was a sacred gift'."

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Toma Heylm]]

==Calénnawn==

===Calénnawn===

Zévo órmulxo óhucsìnu-qi.

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Réfno, áymo-qoy!1 Stu
astóri-benco!1 Épanaleya so sten uráronur iw lúdi. Sónnti orgre
astórivra."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épanaleya zévo rofíltu."

O re-gíxe$e qúmpatme itt "Ay!2"

O réfni$e qúmpatme itt "Qo?3"

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi búhu-qoy. Áymo-benco!1
Áymo-qoy!1"

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Ílmon losówp-benco pélo byu ðálbo-qoy."

O réfni$e gárpu be qúmpatme itt "Fa$e qúmpatme!2"

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Iw re-ganúno, hi lúxci-qoy s-nalástuxo
sum e pélo 'Cúnucs' pso-zóro fa ópalc."

O réfni$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Qo séffiðes?1 El or nalétuvra f-óttu
móri."

O tawvágu$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Émafo qod-gáwna s-heðérro."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "El orgla áduxavran fáygann égla úceyl
sno Pétergla dópi iw nalástuxo. Épalemo se hínnod s-nalétuxo pey sófa
égla hi nalétu f-ttizáfe."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu hi túggat-dal glaz sínu bórmo
zizawpósse níñciv."

O sten$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Épalemo sen úrmed fh tar óttu pélo or
sotáwvra$ úggu-úmper xo el."

O re-gíxe$e bánxa be qúmpatme itt "Stu múla-qoy!1"

$e zelétt dull o gréra awn itt "O sten bánxa be qúmpatme itt 'Ze$e
úyfin lúxcixo.'"

===English===

This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The midwife said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby with
my eyes. You will soon complete giving birth."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Huh?"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife said, "You should not fear. You need to push. Push!"

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket and it should be thick."

The woman shouted, "He spoke!"

The baby said, "My mother, do not give me a name like 'Cunux' because
that one is ordinary."

The woman said, "What is happening? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said, "I can now cut the umbilical cord."

The baby said, "When I will die, I will be a military general and Peter
will honor my name. I need a monster and the drink, but I will not drink
milk."

The priestess said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby said, "I need a cup of wine that has ripened for eight months."

The priestess said, "May you hope!"

They wrote on the next day, "The baby said, 'This was a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Calénnawn]]

==Tæĺf==

===Tæĺf===
Het - her ðeþrek færl.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Þændət, rizdetsaŋajás!

Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás kəmzyjáwnō!" keft bindejtsājáð, "Ho blejo sylmōjəlajo mij myśsoh þá riśtsājo. Hasyɬjáp áwrərzydáftōjás soɣr kəklybám kīláð," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Het byjðos þá rijo," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Hojś!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Nō?" keft þændət fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "Tirblāsaŋajás," keft, "hasyɬjáp áwrəfsyhám kəmzyjáwnō! Fishysaŋajás!" keft bleŋk giŋ́ftsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

"Həwyðeā læfs kəmzyjáwnō," keft mæśsəh, "Tiĺĺsaŋajáð" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Bitnytsājáð!" keft giśtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "Mymo," keft laśkrygám, "Həwyðeā 'Kūnuxs' kesm sym þá dińtylāsaŋajás, háð - naxl," keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þændət "Nō liryś kīláð? Ho tefr kuhkaɬ þyrros þá fiśttsājo" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Ryzdot-y-tēməwrytáwzō "hojā mæśs-y-kymbō þá liryssydámo momgyn" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "mykkō biŕk tēməŕk áwrədrykám dińto, áwrərnylámo beā, 'Kristśin' kesm mylnō biŕk zywrō tēməþkylám sym þá áwrəssyláfsō dińtáð," keft mitnytsājáð, "həwyðeā kæĺk, áwrəfjytám kəmzyjáwnō, jelyj dyɣgop þá áwrəfjytám dińtlajo."

Þæŕfən-þændət "hasyɬjáp hylðō yðeā hymjok ðek liryɣgyfámás kəlamzyjānā" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Mæśsəh "həðəjáp rep jyl kətjydám þyrros sytkonáð kəmzyjáwnō" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Þæŕfən-þændət "Sifreńssaŋajáfþ!" keft fiŕĺtsājáð.

Áwrəklybám kyn brer "mæśsəh 'het - kajprykám dæńt' keft firláð" keft kəfðyrám kiśtsājáð.

===English===
This is a very marvelous story.

The priestess said "Hope!"

The birth-assistant-woman (midwife) exclaimed, "Woman, push! You must give birth!" She said, "I saw the baby with my own eyes. You are in a state of giving birth soon (you are about to give birth)."

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said "I see this world."

The priestess said "Oy!"

The woman said "What?"

The midwife said, "Do not fear," and commanded "You must push! Push!"

The priestess said "Hope!"

The baby said, "I need a blanket," and said "may it be thick."

The priestess screamed, "It spoke!"

The baby addressed, "My mother," and said, "Don't give me the name Kūnuxs, it is ordinary."

The woman said "What stays going (what's going on)? I drank too much wine."

The midwife said "It is possible for me to cut the life-rope (umbilical cord)."

The baby declared, "When I die, I will have become a military general, and the Christian-religion gate-keeper (Peter) will honour my name," [and continued,] "I need a monster and to drink, but don't give me milk."

The priestess said, "It is unnecessary for you to give commands as a hamster to a cougar."

The baby said "I need a cup of 1-year-aged wine."

The priestess said, "Hope!"

The next day it was written, "The baby says, 'This is a blessèd gift.'"

===Smooth English from Calénnawn===
This is a very marvelous narration.

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The midwife spoke and said, "Woman, push! You need to give birth! I see the baby using my eyes. You are about to give birth."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I see this world."

The priestess said, "Oy!"

The woman said, "What?"

The midwife spoke and said, "Do not fear. You need to push! Push!"

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

The baby spoke and said, "I need a blanket, and may it be thick."

The woman screamed and said, "S/he/it spoke!"

The baby spoke and said, "My mother, do not give unto me the name 'Cúnucs' because it is common/ordinary."

The woman spoke and said, "What is happening? I have drunk too much wine."

The midwife spoke and said, "I am able to cut the umbilical cord."

The baby spoke and said, "When I die, I will have been a military general and Peter will honour my name. I need a monster and I need to drink, but I will not drink the milk."

The priestess spoke and said, "You should not flop about like a fish on a dock."

The baby spoke and said, "I need a cup of wine aged 12 months."

The priestess spoke and said, "Hope!"

It was written the next day, "The baby speaks and says, 'This is a sacred gift.'"

===Details===

[[Conlang Relay 12/Tæĺf]]

[[Category:Conlang Relay 12|*]]

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-11T19:31:45Z

IJzeren Jan: /* IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! */

Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk

2006-01-11T19:30:39Z

IJzeren Jan: /* IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! */

=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===

; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: ''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"''

=== HE LOOKS AND TALKS?! ===

; Man: Keep up!
; Doctor: Press, madam, you must press! Now look here, I can see the baby's head already. Soon you will have everything behind you.
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: Well, hey, I can see the place where we are.
; Doctor: Oh hell!
; Woman: What happened?
; Doctor: Please don't worry. You need to press, madam, you must press!
; Man: Keep up!
; Baby: I want to put on something, okay? Hey, I'm used to wearing expensive stuff!
; Woman: He can talk.
; Baby: Listen up, mother. I am your child. But I don't want to be called "Konórz", oh no, because that is way too ordinary.
; Woman: It is because I drank too much, right? Is this baby talking?
; Doctor: Now I will cut through his umbical chord.
; Baby: Before my death I was a general, you know. And I carry a good name, namely, my name is "Piotr". And I would like a drink, dammit, but I don't want any milk!
; Doctor: Piotr, stop squirming like a worm, you!
; Baby: I haven't had any vodka for eight months...
; Man: Keep up!

The next day, the writer writes: ''"A TALKING BABY! A GIFT FROM GOD!"''

=== Glossary ===

'''a''' (prep.) to, unto, on, at
 '''akwiała''' (f.) vodka
 '''alkód''' (pron.indef.) something
 '''apiołar''' (v.) to name, to call
 '''awiar''' (v.) to have
 '''awieścier''' (v.) to don, to dress, to clothe
 '''biar''' (v.) to drink
 '''bon''' (adj.) good
 '''brzosar''' (v.) to press, to push
 '''don''' (n.) gift, present
 '''donia''' (f.) lady, Mrs., you (polite form, to a woman)
 '''dzabeł''' (m.) devil
 '''dzej''' (m.) day
 '''dziewin''' (adj.) divine, godly
 '''ej''' (intj.) hey!
 '''fali''' (v.impers.) it is necessary
 '''fiemnia''' (f.) woman
 '''fy''': perf.1/3.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''generał''' (m.) (military) general
 '''i''' (conj.) and
 '''ił''' (pron.dem.) this, that
 '''ił''' (pron.pers.) he
 '''jest''': pres.3.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''jo''' (pron.pers.) I
 '''kapu''' (n.) head
 '''kar''' (adj.) dear, expensive
 '''kieru''' (v.) please (SEE NOTES)
 '''komód''' (adv.) how, as, if, like
 '''Konórz''' (m.) Konórz (name)
 '''kód''' (pron.int.) what
 '''kódże''' (intj.) whatever, anything (SEE NOTES)
 '''kroda''' (f.) string
 '''kura''' (f.) care (SEE NOTES)
 '''li''': dat.sg. of '''ił''' (2)
 '''łac''' (n.) milk
 '''łok''' (m.) place, location
 '''łu''' (pron.pers.) it
 '''macierz''' (f.) mother
 '''maszkieł''' (m.) man
 '''maż''' (conj.) but, and
 '''mi''': dat.sg. of '''jo'''
 '''miedziek''' (m.) doctor, physician
 '''mieś''' (f.) month
 '''mółt''' (adj./adv.) many, much, very
 '''mroć''' (f.) death
 '''nat''' (m.) child
 '''nąk''' (conj.) because
 '''nie''' (adv.) not
 '''nie''' (intj.) no
 '''nieparłarz''' (m.) baby
 '''no''' (intj.) now, well, so
 '''nomię''' (n.) name
 '''nonialemięć''' (adv.) namely, that is, i.e.
 '''nu''' (pron.pers.) we
 '''nuł''' (adj.) no, not a single
 '''ocu''' (num.) eight
 '''par''' (prep.) through
 '''parłar''' (v.) to talk, to speak
 '''parstar''' (v.) to stop
 '''parświarar''' (v.) to persevere, to endure, to keep up
 '''partalar''' (v.) to cut through
 '''pasar''' (v.) to happen
 '''Piotr''' (m.) Peter (name)
 '''po''' (prep.) behind, after
 '''pocier''' (v.) can, to be able
 '''posu''': pres.1.sg. of '''pocier'''
 '''pościór''', gen. '''postru''' (adj.) next, following
 '''prostokód''' (conj.) because
 '''protar''' (v.) to wear, to carry
 '''przej''' (prep.) before, in front of
 '''przeście''' (adv.) almost
 '''rodnarz''' (adj.) normal, ordinary
 '''sie''' (pron.refl.) oneself
 '''skrzyptórz''' (m.) writer
 '''skrzywier''' (v.) to write
 '''stawiecz''' (adv.) now
 '''su''': pres.1.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''swej''' (pron.poss.) one's own
 '''syt a''' (adj.) used to, accustomed to
 '''szczer''' ('''szczycie''') (v.) to know
 '''szer''' (v.) to be
 '''szmata''' (f.) rag (SEE NOTES)
 '''szy''' (conj.) whether, if; particle introducing a question
 '''śpieczer''' (v.) to look, to watch
 '''śrepiętar''' (v.) to squirm
 '''świe''': f.gen.sg. of '''swej'''
 '''tot''' (adj.) each, every
 '''tot''' (pron.int.) everything
 '''trów''' (adv.) too, too much
 '''trzebdar''' (v.) to fear, to be afraid
 '''tu''' (pron.pers.) you, thou
 '''twej''' (pron.poss.) your, thy
 '''uszkiełtar''' (v.) to listen
 '''w''' (particle) (SEE NOTES)
 '''wądź''' (adv.) where
 '''węblikał''' (adj.) navel, umbilical
 '''wiartać''' (f.) truth
 '''widziar''' (v.) to see
 '''wlar''' (v.) to want (SEE NOTES)
 '''włu''': pres.1/3.sg. of '''wlar'''
 '''wółcim, -ćma''' (adj.) last
 '''wrzem''' (m.) worm
 '''ździar''' (v.) to sit
 '''-ż''' (SEE NOTES)
 '''ża''' (adv.) already

=== Grammar ===

Wenedyk is a Slavo-Romance language that basically deals with the question what Polish would have looked like if it had been a Romance language. As a result, phonology, grammar and syntax are largely based on Polish. Wenedyk exists within the alternative timeline of Ill Bethisad, where it is spoken in the Republic of the Two Crowns.

Word order is mostly free, but SVO by default.

Nouns, pronouns and adjectives can have three cases (direct case, genitive, dative), three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter), and two numbers (singular, plural). There are no articles. Adjectives agree with the noun in number, gender and case. They can be placed both before and after it.

The Verb moods and tenses are: present, imperfect, perfect, future I, future II, imperative, and subjunctive. All appear in this relay text. Future I (imperfective future) indicates an action or state that will take place in the future.
Future II (perfective future) focuses on the result of an action that will be completed in the future; depending on the context, it can be translated as a future tense, a perfect tense or a present tense in English. The subjunctive mood can be used in many ways, also as optative and conditional.

In this text, you will encounter the following forms and endings. |'| indicates palatalisation of the preceding consonant (r'e > rze, t'e > cie, etc.).

* Verb endings:
*: -a: imperative 2.sg.
*: -a, -'e: pres.3.sg.
*: -cie: pres.2.pl.
*: -'e: perf.1.sg. (of a-stems)
*: -ęć: present active participle
*: -m: pres.1.pl.
*: -r: infinitive
*: -rszy: subj.1/3.sg. (*)
*: -ru: futII.1.sg.
*: -u: pres.1.sg.
*: -wa: impf.1/3.sg.
*: -wie: futI.3.sg.
*: -wszy: perf.1/3.sg. (of stems other than a-stems)

* Noun endings:
*: -a: f.dir.sg.
*: -'e: f.dat.sg.
*: -'e: f.dir.pl.
*: -'e: m.voc.sg
*: -i/-y: gen.sg.
*: -u: m/n.gen.sg.
*: -'u: m/n.gen.pl.

* Adjective endings:
*: -a: f.dir.sg.
*: -'e: f.dir.pl.
*: -u: m.gen.sg.

=== Notes ===

* '''Kieru''' means "please" and is extremelyy often used in polite speech. The combination '''kieru doni''' (to a man) and '''kieru donie''' (to a woman) can usually mean "sir" or "madam" respectively, and can often be left untranslated.
* '''Kódże''': difficult to translaate, mostly used as an emphatic interjection along the lines of "well well", "okay", "anyway", "whatever", etc. Often used to express indifference.
* '''Kura''' literally means "care", and nothhing else. It is used as a curse only because it sounds similar to the word '''kurwa''' "whore". Depending on the speaker's level of civilisation, both are used very frequently in Wenedyk.
* '''Szmata''' literally means "rag", but in equally less civilised speech the plural form is often used for "clothes".
* In combination with the subjunctive moood, '''w''' fulfills the function of an optative particle. This construction is also used as a polite imperative.
* The third person singular of '''wlar''', '''wwłu''', can be used in conjunction with the reflexive pronoun '''sie''', in which case it become an impersonal verb with a weaker meaning than "want", something along the lines of "would like". The subject is in the dative case.
* '''-ż''', '''-że''', '''ż''', '''-༨e''': particle that acts like an intensifier.
* It is important to realise that the subbjunctive ending '''-rszy-''' is constructed from the infinitive and forms of the verb '''szer'''. In certain environments these two constituents can be separated from each other.

=== Abbreviations ===

adj. - adjective 
adv. - adverb 
conj. - conjunction 
dat. - dative case 
dir. - direct case 
f. - feminine 
futI. - future I 
futII. - future II 
gen. - genitive case 
impf. - imperfective tense 
intj. - interjection 
m. - masculine 
n. - neuter 
num. - numeral 
perf. - perfect tense 
pl. - plural 
prep. - preposition 
pres. - present tense 
pron.dem. - demonstrative pronoun 
pron.indef. - indefinite pronoun 
pron.int. - interrogative pronoun 
pron.pers. - personal pronoun 
pron.poss. - possessive pronoun 
pron.refl. - reflexive pronoun 
sg. - singular 
subj. - subjunctive mood 
v. - verb 
v.impers. - impersonal verb 
voc. - vocative case 
1, 2, 3 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd person

Conlang Relay 12/Wenedyk

2006-01-11T19:25:50Z

IJzeren Jan:

=== IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! ===

; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Miedziek: Brzosar, kieru donie, w donia brzosarszy! Kieru, kieru, ża posu widziar kapu nieparłarzu. Awie donia tot przeście ża po sie.
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: No no, kódże, jo posu widziar łok wądź nu ździem.
; Miedziek: A dzabeł!
; Fiemnia: Kód pasie?
; Miedziek: W donia szy nie trzebdar. Fali brzosar, kieru donie, brzosar fali!
; Maszkieł: Parświara!
; Nieparłarz: Jo włu alkód awieścier, no. Ej, su syt a protar karze szmacie!
; Fiemnia: Ił pocie parłar.
; Nieparłarz: Uszkiełtaż tu, macierz. Jo su twej nat. Maż nie włu apiołar sie "Konórz", no nie no, nąk łu jest mółt trów rodnarz.
; Fiemnia: Łu jest prostokód jo trów mółt biewszy, wiartać? Szy ił nieparłarz parła?
; Miedziek: Stawiecz partalaru li kroda węblikała.
; Nieparłarz: Przej mroci świe fy generał, szczycie. Maż protu bon nomię, nonialemięć, "Piotr" sie apiołu. I biar mi sie włu, kura, maż nułu łacy nie włu!
; Miedziek: Piotrze, parsta ża śrepiętar komód wrzem, tu!
; Nieparłarz: Par wółćmie ocu miesiu nie biewa akwiały...
; Maszkieł: Parświara!

Postru dzei skrzywie skrzyptórz: '''"NIEPARŁARZ PARŁĘĆ! ŁU DON DZIEWIN!"'''

=== Glossary ===

'''a''' (prep.) to, unto, on, at
 '''akwiała''' (f.) vodka
 '''alkód''' (pron.indef.) something
 '''apiołar''' (v.) to name, to call
 '''awiar''' (v.) to have
 '''awieścier''' (v.) to don, to dress, to clothe
 '''biar''' (v.) to drink
 '''bon''' (adj.) good
 '''brzosar''' (v.) to press, to push
 '''don''' (n.) gift, present
 '''donia''' (f.) lady, Mrs., you (polite form, to a woman)
 '''dzabeł''' (m.) devil
 '''dzej''' (m.) day
 '''dziewin''' (adj.) divine, godly
 '''ej''' (intj.) hey!
 '''fali''' (v.impers.) it is necessary
 '''fiemnia''' (f.) woman
 '''fy''': perf.1/3.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''generał''' (m.) (military) general
 '''i''' (conj.) and
 '''ił''' (pron.dem.) this, that
 '''ił''' (pron.pers.) he
 '''jest''': pres.3.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''jo''' (pron.pers.) I
 '''kapu''' (n.) head
 '''kar''' (adj.) dear, expensive
 '''kieru''' (v.) please (SEE NOTES)
 '''komód''' (adv.) how, as, if, like
 '''Konórz''' (m.) Konórz (name)
 '''kód''' (pron.int.) what
 '''kódże''' (intj.) whatever, anything (SEE NOTES)
 '''kroda''' (f.) string
 '''kura''' (f.) care (SEE NOTES)
 '''li''': dat.sg. of '''ił''' (2)
 '''łac''' (n.) milk
 '''łok''' (m.) place, location
 '''łu''' (pron.pers.) it
 '''macierz''' (f.) mother
 '''maszkieł''' (m.) man
 '''maż''' (conj.) but, and
 '''mi''': dat.sg. of '''jo'''
 '''miedziek''' (m.) doctor, physician
 '''mieś''' (f.) month
 '''mółt''' (adj./adv.) many, much, very
 '''mroć''' (f.) death
 '''nat''' (m.) child
 '''nąk''' (conj.) because
 '''nie''' (adv.) not
 '''nie''' (intj.) no
 '''nieparłarz''' (m.) baby
 '''no''' (intj.) now, well, so
 '''nomię''' (n.) name
 '''nonialemięć''' (adv.) namely, that is, i.e.
 '''nu''' (pron.pers.) we
 '''nuł''' (adj.) no, not a single
 '''ocu''' (num.) eight
 '''par''' (prep.) through
 '''parłar''' (v.) to talk, to speak
 '''parstar''' (v.) to stop
 '''parświarar''' (v.) to persevere, to endure, to keep up
 '''partalar''' (v.) to cut through
 '''pasar''' (v.) to happen
 '''Piotr''' (m.) Peter (name)
 '''po''' (prep.) behind, after
 '''pocier''' (v.) can, to be able
 '''posu''': pres.1.sg. of '''pocier'''
 '''pościór''', gen. '''postru''' (adj.) next, following
 '''prostokód''' (conj.) because
 '''protar''' (v.) to wear, to carry
 '''przej''' (prep.) before, in front of
 '''przeście''' (adv.) almost
 '''rodnarz''' (adj.) normal, ordinary
 '''sie''' (pron.refl.) oneself
 '''skrzyptórz''' (m.) writer
 '''skrzywier''' (v.) to write
 '''stawiecz''' (adv.) now
 '''su''': pres.1.sg. of '''szer'''
 '''swej''' (pron.poss.) one's own
 '''syt a''' (adj.) used to, accustomed to
 '''szczer''' ('''szczycie''') (v.) to know
 '''szer''' (v.) to be
 '''szmata''' (f.) rag (SEE NOTES)
 '''szy''' (conj.) whether, if; particle introducing a question
 '''śpieczer''' (v.) to look, to watch
 '''śrepiętar''' (v.) to squirm
 '''świe''': f.gen.sg. of '''swej'''
 '''tot''' (adj.) each, every
 '''tot''' (pron.int.) everything
 '''trów''' (adv.) too, too much
 '''trzebdar''' (v.) to fear, to be afraid
 '''tu''' (pron.pers.) you, thou
 '''twej''' (pron.poss.) your, thy
 '''uszkiełtar''' (v.) to listen
 '''w''' (particle) (SEE NOTES)
 '''wądź''' (adv.) where
 '''węblikał''' (adj.) navel, umbilical
 '''wiartać''' (f.) truth
 '''widziar''' (v.) to see
 '''wlar''' (v.) to want (SEE NOTES)
 '''włu''': pres.1/3.sg. of '''wlar'''
 '''wółcim, -ćma''' (adj.) last
 '''wrzem''' (m.) worm
 '''ździar''' (v.) to sit
 '''-ż''' (SEE NOTES)
 '''ża''' (adv.) already

=== Grammar ===

Wenedyk is a Slavo-Romance language that basically deals with the question what Polish would have looked like if it had been a Romance language. As a result, phonology, grammar and syntax are largely based on Polish. Wenedyk exists within the alternative timeline of Ill Bethisad, where it is spoken in the Republic of the Two Crowns.

Word order is mostly free, but SVO by default.

Nouns, pronouns and adjectives can have three cases (direct case, genitive, dative), three genders (masculine, feminine, neuter), and two numbers (singular, plural). There are no articles. Adjectives agree with the noun in number, gender and case. They can be placed both before and after it.

The Verb moods and tenses are: present, imperfect, perfect, future I, future II, imperative, and subjunctive. All appear in this relay text. Future I (imperfective future) indicates an action or state that will take place in the future.
Future II (perfective future) focuses on the result of an action that will be completed in the future; depending on the context, it can be translated as a future tense, a perfect tense or a present tense in English. The subjunctive mood can be used in many ways, also as optative and conditional.

In this text, you will encounter the following forms and endings. |'| indicates palatalisation of the preceding consonant (r'e > rze, t'e > cie, etc.).

* Verb endings:
*: -a: imperative 2.sg.
*: -a, -'e: pres.3.sg.
*: -cie: pres.2.pl.
*: -'e: perf.1.sg. (of a-stems)
*: -ęć: present active participle
*: -m: pres.1.pl.
*: -r: infinitive
*: -rszy: subj.1/3.sg. (*)
*: -ru: futII.1.sg.
*: -u: pres.1.sg.
*: -wa: impf.1/3.sg.
*: -wie: futI.3.sg.
*: -wszy: perf.1/3.sg. (of stems other than a-stems)

* Noun endings:
*: -a: f.dir.sg.
*: -'e: f.dat.sg.
*: -'e: f.dir.pl.
*: -'e: m.voc.sg
*: -i/-y: gen.sg.
*: -u: m/n.gen.sg.
*: -'u: m/n.gen.pl.

* Adjective endings:
*: -a: f.dir.sg.
*: -'e: f.dir.pl.
*: -u: m.gen.sg.

=== Notes ===

* '''Kieru''' means "please" and is extremelyy often used in polite speech. The combination '''kieru doni''' (to a man) and '''kieru donie''' (to a woman) can usually mean "sir" or "madam" respectively, and can often be left untranslated.
* '''Kódże''': difficult to translaate, mostly used as an emphatic interjection along the lines of "well well", "okay", "anyway", "whatever", etc. Often used to express indifference.
* '''Kura''' literally means "care", and nothhing else. It is used as a curse only because it sounds similar to the word '''kurwa''' "whore". Depending on the speaker's level of civilisation, both are used very frequently in Wenedyk.
* '''Szmata''' literally means "rag", but in equally less civilised speech the plural form is often used for "clothes".
* In combination with the subjunctive moood, '''w''' fulfills the function of an optative particle. This construction is also used as a polite imperative.
* The third person singular of '''wlar''', '''wwłu''', can be used in conjunction with the reflexive pronoun '''sie''', in which case it become an impersonal verb with a weaker meaning than "want", something along the lines of "would like". The subject is in the dative case.
* '''-ż''', '''-że''', '''ż''', '''-༨e''': particle that acts like an intensifier.
* It is important to realise that the subbjunctive ending '''-rszy-''' is constructed from the infinitive and forms of the verb '''szer'''. In certain environments these two constituents can be separated from each other.

=== Abbreviations ===

adj. - adjective 
adv. - adverb 
conj. - conjunction 
dat. - dative case 
dir. - direct case 
f. - feminine 
futI. - future I 
futII. - future II 
gen. - genitive case 
impf. - imperfective tense 
intj. - interjection 
m. - masculine 
n. - neuter 
num. - numeral 
perf. - perfect tense 
pl. - plural 
prep. - preposition 
pres. - present tense 
pron.dem. - demonstrative pronoun 
pron.indef. - indefinite pronoun 
pron.int. - interrogative pronoun 
pron.pers. - personal pronoun 
pron.poss. - possessive pronoun 
pron.refl. - reflexive pronoun 
sg. - singular 
subj. - subjunctive mood 
v. - verb 
v.impers. - impersonal verb 
voc. - vocative case 
1, 2, 3 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd person

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-11T19:09:36Z

IJzeren Jan: /* IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! */

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-11T19:09:19Z

IJzeren Jan: /* IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! */

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-11T19:08:58Z

IJzeren Jan: /* IŁ ŚPIECZE I PARŁA?! */

Conlang Relay 12

2006-01-11T19:05:01Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Wenedyk */

League of Lost Languages

2005-08-23T18:21:28Z

IJzeren Jan: /* The languages of the LLL */

The '''League of Lost Languages''' ('''LLL''') is a collaborative project about
the survival of languages that existed or could have existed in
the world we live in, but disappeared without leaving any living
descendants. The idea is that in the LLL world, some languages
survived that died out here, without changing the world more than
necessary to accomodate the languages in question. The LLL world
is essentially our world with the same history and geography,
just with a few extra languages.

Examples include European languages of pre-Indo-European origin, modern East Germanic languages, fictional branches of
Indo-European, sister groups of real-world families and isolates, etc. Of course, this is not limited to Europe. An LLL language could
be yet another of the many diverse languages of the North American Pacific coast, a modern-day descendant of Sumerian or a
pre-Bantu language in the Congo basin. It is also not ultimately necessary that the languages are spoken today; they might be extinct
but having left written records.

The participants would contribute their conlangs, say where and when they are spoken, and write fake scholarly papers and similar
stuff about them.

A language contributed to the LLL must fulfill the following criteria:

# It is ''naturalistic'', i.e. it is plausible as a human language.
# It is ''spoken by humans''; non-human races (even Neanderthal survivals etc.) are out of bounds. (The [[Elves]] and [[Dwarves]] speaking [[Albic]] and [[Pictic]] are no exception to this: they are humans, not the usual fantasy races.)
# Its ''history is consistent'' with the known history of the real world. This means that all the major events are the same as in our world. This rule puts limits on conculturing, but it also helps avoiding awkward political and religious debates, and concentrating on the languages.
# It is either ''extinct'' (having left behind written records) or spoken by a community ''small'' enough not to make a difference. (This is pretty much an implication of the criterion above.)

The LLL conducts its business on the [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs lostlangs mailing list].

==The languages of the LLL==

{|
!Language
!Location
!Author
|-
| [[Albic]] family
| British Isles
| [[User:WeepingElf|Jörg Rhiemeier]]
|-
| [[Channel Island Siouxan]]
| Channel Islands
| panchakahq
|-
| [[Continental English]]
| Germany?
| Angel
|-
| [[Føtisk]]
| Denmark
| Tristan McLeay
|-
| [[Germanech]]
| Trier, Germany
| [[User:WeepingElf|Jörg Rhiemeier]]
|-
| [[Hairo]]
| Rügen, Germany
| Christian Thalmann
|-
| [[Hattic]]
| Russia
| [[User:IJzeren Jan|Jan van Steenbergen]]
|-
| [[Hifahoshaj]]
| Texas
| Bob Thornton
|-
| [[Kuman Tyli]]
| Russia/Ukraine
| Isaac Penzev
|-
| [[li~Rumaninu]]
| Congo
| Patrick Dunn
|-
| [[Mærik]]
| Sweden
| [[User:Melroch|Benct Philip Jonsson]]
|-
| [[Neo-Khitanese]]
| Kamchatka Peninsula
| panchakahq
|-
| [[Noric]] family
| Austria
| the group
|-
| [[Orinoco English]]
| Venezuela
| Rodlox R
|-
| [[Pictic]] family
| British Isles
| [[User:WeepingElf|Jörg Rhiemeier]]
|-
| [[Thagojian]]
| Egypt/Palestine/Israel
| Paul Bennett
|}

==Seleted articles from the lostlangs list==

{|
! Date
! Author
! Title
|-
| 2004/07/03
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/9 Some thoughts about the linguistic landscape of Europe]
|-
| 2004/07/03
| Christian Thalmann
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/12 Hairo Script Brainstorming]
|-
| 2004/07/05
| Patrick Dunn
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/22 li~Rumaninu]
|-
| 2004/07/10
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/39 pre-Homo sapiens languages; Vinca script]
|-
| 2004/07/10
| Bob Thornton
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/44 Hifahos^aj]
|-
| 2004/07/19
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/72 The British Isles Linguistic Area]
|-
| 2004/07/22
| Isaac Penzev
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/75 First info about Kuman Tyli]
|-
| 2004/07/22
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/77 Some facts about Caucasian languages]
|-
| 2004/07/23
| Christian Thalmann
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/78 Hairo Grammar Brainstorm]
|-
| 2004/09/04
| Bob Thornton
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/139 Possessives within Hifahoshach]
|-
| 2004/09/12
| Bob Thornton
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/178 Hifahoshach Verb Conjugation]
|-
| 2004/10/03
| panchakahq
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/197 Turkish Loans in Neo-Khitanese]
|-
| 2004/10/05
| Christian Thalmann
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/205 Hairo Page in Progress]
|-
| 2004/11/29
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/260 Degrees of volition in Old Albic]
|-
| 2004/12/29
| Bob Thornton
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/263 Revised Hifahoshach phonology]
|-
| 2005/02/20
| Jörg Rhiemeier
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/289 Some Old Albic calendar and mythology stuff]
|-
| 2005/03/27
| Angel
| [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lostlangs/message/295 Ynglesh Lawngwedg (Preview)]
|}

[[Category:LLL]]

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T08:18:46Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translation complete!

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

Obviously ''-y'' does not prevent palatalisation when it constitutes an ending: instr.pl. ''*vĺ̥ky'' 'wolves', ale ''*otьci'' 'fathers'. When necessary OCS adds the endings of the soft declension like in the acc.pl. ''*otьcę'' (according to *''mǫžę''), but ''*vĺ̥ky''. This also testifies that the choice between palatalised and non-palatalised forms is conditioned morphologically rather than phonetically.

As for these dialectal differences: forms with 3rd palatalisation occur in Old Church Slavonic more frequently than in Polish, where either the process was weaker or the effect of analogy was stronger. Polish remained unwritten for a longer time, and as long as there was no literary tradition, it was easier to replace forms with 3rd palatalisation by equalised forms without palatalisation.

It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation. 

It is generally assumed that the 3rd palatalisation took place later than the 2nd, in the period when Common Slavic unity was falling apart, because the phenonemon is less universal. Besides, theorically it ought to take place also after ''-e-, -ě-'', but as far as I know, there is not a single example of that.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964 
source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987
 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

The opinions differ strongly here. Czesław Bartula (''Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym'', PWN Warszawa 1981) gives:
* 1st palatalisation: beginning of our era (1 A.D.) - turn of the 2nd/3rd century (200 A.D.)
* 2nd palatalisation: 4th - 6th century
* 3rd palatalisation: end of 7th century
Zdzisław Stieber (''Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich'', Warszawa 1969) gives a different chronology:
* 1st palatalisation: 3rd and 4th century
* 2nd palatalisation: "after the 6th century", i.e. the 7th of 8th century
* 3rd palatalisation: beginning of the 8th century

The confusion of PIE ''a, o > a'' is generally considered a very old phenomenon, dating back to the Proto-Indo-European era. After all, the vowels ''a'' and ''o'' kept their distinctness only in the Italic and Celtic languages as well as in Greek; everywhere else they got confused (even in Anatolian and in Tocharian). One should of course add PIE schwa here (with the exception of syllables near the end of a word, where it usually disappeared). Also, there is no reason at all to reconstruct ''å'' in the old days: even in the period of Slavic expansion it was most certainly pronounced as a short ''a''! Personally I believe that the rounding of Slavic ''a > o'' is a phenomenon dating back to the years 700-800, shortly before the appearance of the oldest written sources in Slavic.

In any case, 1st palatalisation was already dead when the Slavs got in touch with the Goths. Indeed, at the moment I can think of only one example of a Germanic loan that underwent 1st palatalisation: ''*šelmъ'' (Old Polish ''szłom'', nowadays only ''hełm'' 'helmet', from Germanic ''*xelmaz''). Otherwise, words of Gothic descent only have 2nd palatalisation: ''ocьtъ'' 'vinegar' from Gothic ''aket'', ''*cęta'' from Gothic ''kintus'' 'name of a small coin'. 1st palatalisation was most certainly already dead by the time of Slavic expansion, which could have started a little before the year 500 A.D. In any case, when the ancestors of the Slovenians reached the territories where they live nowadays, they borrowed the name of the river ''Gīla'' as ''Zilja''.

Also, I don't understand why Lamprecht dates the appearance of nasals so late. As it seems, at least the appearance of ''ę'' must have preceded 3rd palatalisation: after all, it's easier to imagine the process ''-ęk- > -ęc-'' niż ''-enk- > -enc-''. The disappearance of nasals happens of course not in all Slavic languages: even nowadays nasals exist in Polish, and also in certain Slovenian dialects (hardly known to anybody).

Finally, the contraction VjV was an irregular process, conditioned by usage frequency or by morphological factors. Even nowadays we have Russian ''stojat''' = Polish ''stać''. And even in Polish we have, next to the infinitives ''wiać, stać, bać się'', the uncontracted forms ''wieje, stoję, boję się''. Numerous other forms did not undergo contraction at all: ''kajać się, krajać'', even though contraction of ''-aja-'' seems easier than contraction of ''-oja-'' (''*stojati, *bojati sę'') or ''-ěja-''.

At last, the "vocalisation of jers" is a very imprecise concept. First of all, it didn't follow the same pattern in the various languages: in Russian and Polish the strong jers (on the even positions counting from the end of a word) mixed with other vowels. But in Bulgarian the hard jer kept its own, different pronunciation. In Polabian, on the other hand, jers in the first syllable were preserved as vowels with a particular colour. In some cases initial jers were kept in the East Slavic languages. In Kashubian and in the Sorbian languages there is the principle, that in words with more than two syllables the two final jers are weak. Thus, the changes of the jers happened differently (and in different times) in the various Slavic languages, and they don't have much in common with the Common Slavic era.

Similar remarks can be made about "metathesis" of liquids, which in East Slavic was no metathesis at all (but the insertion of a full vowel instead). We know that something similar happened also in Old Polish, namely f.ex. ''*-or- > *-ъro-'', and not immediately ''-ro-'' as it was once assumed. OCS kept a number of unmetathesised forms (albeit ''alkati''). Likewise ''-ar-'' is the norm in Kashubian, and certain words were kept in Polish until recently (''karw'', now entirely out of use and supplanted by ''wół'' 'ox' and ''byk'' 'bull').

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T07:56:38Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

Obviously ''-y'' does not prevent palatalisation when it constitutes an ending: instr.pl. ''*vĺ̥ky'' 'wolves', ale ''*otьci'' 'fathers'. When necessary OCS adds the endings of the soft declension like in the acc.pl. ''*otьcę'' (according to *''mǫžę''), but ''*vĺ̥ky''. This also testifies that the choice between palatalised and non-palatalised forms is conditioned morphologically rather than phonetically.

As for these dialectal differences: forms with 3rd palatalisation occur in Old Church Slavonic more frequently than in Polish, where either the process was weaker or the effect of analogy was stronger. Polish remained unwritten for a longer time, and as long as there was no literary tradition, it was easier to replace forms with 3rd palatalisation by equalised forms without palatalisation.

It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation. 

It is generally assumed that the 3rd palatalisation took place later than the 2nd, in the period when Common Slavic unity was falling apart, because the phenonemon is less universal. Besides, theorically it ought to take place also after ''-e-, -ě-'', but as far as I know, there is not a single example of that.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964 
source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987
 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

The opinions differ strongly here. Czesław Bartula (''Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym'', PWN Warszawa 1981) gives:
* 1st palatalisation: beginning of our era (1 A.D.) - turn of the 2nd/3rd century (200 A.D.)
* 2nd palatalisation: 4th - 6th century
* 3rd palatalisation: end of 7th century
Zdzisław Stieber (''Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich'', Warszawa 1969) gives a different chronology:
* 1st palatalisation: 3rd and 4th century
* 2nd palatalisation: "after the 6th century", i.e. the 7th of 8th century
* 3rd palatalisation: beginning of the 8th century

The confusion of PIE ''a, o > a'' is generally considered a very old phenomenon, dating back to the Proto-Indo-European era. After all, the vowels ''a'' and ''o'' kept their distinctness only in the Italic and Celtic languages as well as in Greek; everywhere else they got confused (even in Anatolian and in Tocharian). One should of course add PIE schwa here (with the exception of syllables near the end of a word, where it usually disappeared). Also, there is no reason at all to reconstruct ''å'' in the old days: even in the period of Slavic expansion it was most certainly pronounced as a short ''a''! Personally I believe that the rounding of Slavic ''a > o'' is a phenomenon dating back to the years 700-800, shortly before the appearance of the oldest written sources in Slavic.

In any case, 1st palatalisation was already dead when the Slavs got in touch with the Goths. Indeed, at the moment I can think of only one example of a Germanic loan that underwent 1st palatalisation: ''*šelmъ'' (Old Polish ''szłom'', nowadays only ''hełm'' 'helmet', from Germanic ''*xelmaz''). Otherwise, words of Gothic descent only have 2nd palatalisation: ''ocьtъ'' 'vinegar' from Gothic ''aket'', ''*cęta'' from Gothic ''kintus'' 'name of a small coin'. 1st palatalisation was most certainly already dead by the time of Slavic expansion, which could have started a little before the year 500 A.D. In any case, when the ancestors of the Slovenians reached the territories where they live nowadays, they borrowed the name of the river ''Gīla'' as ''Zilja''.

Also, I don't understand why Lamprecht dates the appearance of nasals so late. As it seems, at least the appearance of ''ę'' must have preceded 3rd palatalisation: after all, it's easier to imagine the process ''-ęk- > -ęc-'' niż ''-enk- > -enc-''. The disappearance of nasals happens of course not in all Slavic languages: even nowadays nasals exist in Polish, and also in certain Slovenian dialects (hardly known to anybody).

Finally, the contraction VjV was an irregular process, conditioned by usage frequency or by morphological factors. Even nowadays we have Russian ''stojat''' = Polish ''stać''. And even in Polish we have, next to the infinitives ''wiać, stać, bać się'', the uncontracted forms ''wieje, stoję, boję się''. Numerous other forms did not undergo contraction at all: ''kajać się, krajać'', even though contraction of ''-aja-'' seems easier than contraction of ''-oja-'' (''*stojati, *bojati sę'') or ''-ěja-''.

<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T07:25:02Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

Obviously ''-y'' does not prevent palatalisation when it constitutes an ending: instr.pl. ''*vĺ̥ky'' 'wolves', ale ''*otьci'' 'fathers'. When necessary OCS adds the endings of the soft declension like in the acc.pl. ''*otьcę'' (according to *''mǫžę''), but ''*vĺ̥ky''. This also testifies that the choice between palatalised and non-palatalised forms is conditioned morphologically rather than phonetically.

As for these dialectal differences: forms with 3rd palatalisation occur in Old Church Slavonic more frequently than in Polish, where either the process was weaker or the effect of analogy was stronger. Polish remained unwritten for a longer time, and as long as there was no literary tradition, it was easier to replace forms with 3rd palatalisation by equalised forms without palatalisation.

It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation. 

It is generally assumed that the 3rd palatalisation took place later than the 2nd, in the period when Common Slavic unity was falling apart, because the phenonemon is less universal. Besides, theorically it ought to take place also after ''-e-, -ě-'', but as far as I know, there is not a single example of that.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964 
source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987
 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T07:18:58Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

Obviously ''-y'' does not prevent palatalisation when it constitutes an ending: instr.pl. ''*vĺ̥ky'' 'wolves', ale ''*otьci'' 'fathers'. When necessary OCS adds the endings of the soft declension like in the acc.pl. ''*otьcę'' (according to *''mǫžę''), but ''*vĺ̥ky''. This also testifies that the choice between palatalised and non-palatalised forms is conditioned morphologically rather than phonetically.

As for these dialectal differences: forms with 3rd palatalisation occur in Old Church Slavonic more frequently than in Polish, where either the process was weaker or the effect of analogy was stronger. Polish remained unwritten for a longer time, and as long as there was no literary tradition, it was easier to replace forms with 3rd palatalisation by equalised forms without palatalisation.

It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation. 

It is generally assumed that the 3rd palatalisation took place later than the 2nd, in the period when Common Slavic unity was falling apart, because the phenonemon is less universal. Besides, theorically it ought to take place also after ''-e-, -ě-'', but as far as I know, there is not a single example of that.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964 
source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987
 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T07:10:12Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

Obviously ''-y'' does not prevent palatalisation when it constitutes an ending: instr.pl. ''*vĺ̥ky'' 'wolves', ale ''*otьci'' 'fathers'. When necessary OCS adds the endings of the soft declension like in the acc.pl. ''*otьcę'' (according to *''mǫžę''), but ''*vĺ̥ky''. This also testifies that the choice between palatalised and non-palatalised forms is conditioned morphologically rather than phonetically.

As for these dialectal differences: forms with 3rd palatalisation occur in Old Church Slavonic more frequently than in Polish, where either the process was weaker or the effect of analogy was stronger. Polish remained unwritten for a longer time, and as long as there was no literary tradition, it was easier to replace forms with 3rd palatalisation by equalised forms without palatalisation.

It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation. 

<DIV>Na ogół przyjmuje się, że III palatalizacja zaszła później niż II, już w dobie rozpadu jedności prasłowiańskiej, gdyż jest mniej powszechna. Co więcej, powinna przecież teoretycznie zachodzić także po -e-, -ě-, a o ile wiem, nie ma na to żadnego przykładu.</DIV>

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it. 

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of
Common Slavic, 1964 

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T06:59:59Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - still translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

As for palatalisation being prevented by -y, things get more complicated. There are preciously little formants that start with ''-y-''. Above all, we have the formant ''-y'', gen. ''-ъve'' (f.ex.: ''*kry, *krъve'') or ''-ene'' (f.ex. ''*kamy, *kamene''), as well as the formant ''-yni''. Little nouns of this type existed in Common Slavic, and their inflection was complicated and not very transparant. Therefore a tendency existed to preserve the forms without 3rd palatalisation. However, things are more complicated than that. In Polish we have for example the masculine nouns ''obrońca, władca'' 'defender' resp. 'ruler' with their female equivalents ''obrończyni, władczyni''. It is hard to tell whether these forms are Common Slavic - the Polish forms would suggest a rivalling affix ''-ini'' (and 1st palatalisation): ''*obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī''.

<DIV>Oczywiście -y nie wstrzymuje palatalizacji, gdy stanowi końcówkę fleksyjną: Instr. pl. *vĺ̥ky, ale *otьci. W scs. gdy potrzeba, wprowadza się końcówki odmiany miękkiej jak w Acc. pl. *otьcę według *mǫžę wobec *vĺ̥ky. To również świadczy, że wybór formy z palatalizacją lub bez niej jest raczej uwarunkowany morfologicznie niż fonetycznie.</DIV>

<DIV>A co do owych różnic dialektalnych: w starocerkiewnosłowiańskim form z III palatalizacją mamy więcej niż w polskim, gdzie albo proces ten był słabszy, albo silniej działała analogia. Polski długo pozostawał bezpiśmienny, a skoro nie było tradycji literackiej, to i formy z III palatalizacją były łatwiej zastępowane przez formy wyrównane bez palatalizacji.</DIV>

<DIV>It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost 100 years after monophthongisation. </DIV>

<DIV>Na ogół przyjmuje się, że III palatalizacja zaszła później niż II, już w dobie rozpadu jedności prasłowiańskiej, gdyż jest mniej powszechna. Co więcej, powinna przecież teoretycznie zachodzić także po -e-, -ě-, a o ile wiem, nie ma na to żadnego przykładu.</DIV>

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it. 

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of
Common Slavic, 1964 

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T06:46:51Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.
As you can see, it cannot be said that -''ъ'' stops 3nd palatalisation automatically. Of course, we almost exclusively have forms on -''ikъ'', and if the word in question is a male person , then the female equivalent is -''ika'', not ''-ica''. This is of course mainly a matter of equalising the forms of both genders. However, when the masculine form has a different meaning than the feminine form, or when only one of these forms exists, then this equalisating does not take place (compare Polish ''kierownik'' 'boss, chief' (person) with ''kierownica'' 'steering wheel' - the female person is ''kierowniczka'').

<DIV>Co do wstrzymania palatalizacji przez -y, sprawa jest jeszcze bardziej skomplikowana. Otóż mało jest formanów rozpoczynających się od -y-. Należą tu przede wszystkim formant -y, dopełniacz -ъve (f.: *kry, *krъve) lub -ene (m.: *kamy, *kamene), oraz formant -yni. Rzeczowników z takimi formantami było w prasłowiańskim w ogóle mało, a ich odmiana była trudna, mało wyrazista. Istniała więc tendencja do utrzymania form bez palatalizacji III. Jednak jak się okazuje, sprawa jest bardziej skomplikowana, gdyż w polskim mamy np. rzecz. męskie obrońca, władca i żeński obrończyni, władczyni. Trudno rozstrzygnąć, czy formacje takie są prasłowiańskie - postać polska sugerowałaby istnienie konkurencyjnego przyrostka -ini (i I palatalizację): *obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī.</DIV>

<DIV>Oczywiście -y nie wstrzymuje palatalizacji, gdy stanowi końcówkę fleksyjną: Instr. pl. *vĺ̥ky, ale *otьci. W scs. gdy potrzeba, wprowadza się końcówki odmiany miękkiej jak w Acc. pl. *otьcę według *mǫžę wobec *vĺ̥ky. To również świadczy, że wybór formy z palatalizacją lub bez niej jest raczej uwarunkowany morfologicznie niż fonetycznie.</DIV>

<DIV>A co do owych różnic dialektalnych: w starocerkiewnosłowiańskim form z III palatalizacją mamy więcej niż w polskim, gdzie albo proces ten był słabszy, albo silniej działała analogia. Polski długo pozostawał bezpiśmienny, a skoro nie było tradycji literackiej, to i formy z III palatalizacją były łatwiej zastępowane przez formy wyrównane bez palatalizacji.</DIV>

<DIV>It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost 100 years after monophthongisation. </DIV>

<DIV>Na ogół przyjmuje się, że III palatalizacja zaszła później niż II, już w dobie rozpadu jedności prasłowiańskiej, gdyż jest mniej powszechna. Co więcej, powinna przecież teoretycznie zachodzić także po -e-, -ě-, a o ile wiem, nie ma na to żadnego przykładu.</DIV>

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it. 

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of
Common Slavic, 1964 

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-23T06:33:51Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */ - translating...

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

'''On III. palatalisation''' It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

According to the handbooks it also happens after syllabic ''ŕ̥'' (''< ьr < ir''). I know only two examples from OCS (Old Church Slavonic): ''mŕ̥cati'' 'to grow dusk' and ''rastŕ̥zati'' (''rastŕ̥ʒati'') 'to tear up'. Equivalents in other Slavic languages (including Polish) don't have palatalisation (Old Polish ''mierzkać'', now ''zmierzchać się'' with irregular ''ch'' instead of ''k''). Perhaps this is due to the fact that in West Slavic sonants appeared later, while in East Slavic they never appeared at all. After all, palatalisation ought not to take place after the group ''-ьr-''; and it didn't.

Not surprisingly, there were also differences between dialects: even the 2nd palatalisation didn't take place identically in all Slavic languages: ''*kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ'' (Polish ''kwiat'', but Russian ''cvet''). Besides, forms like ''kěna'' instead of Common Slavic ''cěna'' are known in the neighbourhood of Novgorod. So, perhaps there were dialects that did not undergo 2nd palatalisation at all.

If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

If 3rd palatalisation was indeed prevented by ''y'' or ''ъ'', we would have expected it when followed by another vowel. But ''-ika'' and ''-ica'' occur almost equally often! Likewise, we can equally often encounter -''ьca'' and ''-ьka, ''-''ьce'' and ''-ьko'', etc. For example: ''*polьʒa'' 'use' (OCS), but ''*ulьga'' 'relief' (Polish, with a different prefix); Old Polish has simultaneously ''jajce'' and ''jajko'' 'egg', ''miejsce'' and ''miastko'' ('place'; < ''*městьce'' || ''*městьko''), etc.

In my opinion one needs to look for: 1) morphological conditions (as assumed already by Jan Otrębski, who died in 1971), 2) dialectal differences. Here are a few examples:
* ''*děvica'', but ''*děvьka'' (OCS ''děvica'' 'virgin, girl', Pol. ''dziewica'' 'virgin', ''dziewka'' 'girl' (a little oldfashioned) - note that neither ''*děvikъ'' nor ''*děvьkъ'' exists,
* ''*žitnica'' 'stodoła' (OCS, ''żytnica'' was known even in Old Polish, I think), but (OCS) ''bližika'' 'close relative', ''ǫžika'' 'id. (relative)' - one can see that ''-ica'' is an impersonal noun and ''-ika'' a personal noun; however, we also have ''*děvica'' (personal!),
* OCS has ''naricaty'' 'to be called', ''dviʒati'' 'to move', Polish has only ''narzekać'' (with an entirely different meaning), ''dźwigać'',
* the hard jer didn't prevent palatalisation at all: ''*otьcь'' 'father', ''*zajęcь'' 'hare', ''*měsęcь'' 'month, moon', ''*pěnęʒь'' 'coin' (borrowed from Germanic), ''*kъnęʒь'' 'prince', ''*vьśь'' 'whole, entire' - all these words are derived from forms with hard stems: ''*otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ, *pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ'' - and none of these forms was preserved in any of the Slavic languages.

<DIV>Jak widać, nie można w każdym razie powiedzieć, że -ъ wstrzymuje III palatalizację. To prawda, że są znane niemal wyłącznie formy na -ikъ, prawda też, że jeśli formant ten oznacza osobę płci męskiej, to osobę płci żeńckiej oznacza -ika, a nie -ica. Chodzi bowiem raczej o to, aby ujednolicić
morfologicznie formy dla obu rodzajów. Jednak gdy forma męska ma inne znaczenie niż żeńska, albo gdy istnieje tylko jedna z form, ujednolicenie nie zachodzi (por. polskie kierownik 'osoba', ale kierownica 'przedmiot' - osoba to kierowniczka).</DIV>

<DIV>Co do wstrzymania palatalizacji przez -y, sprawa jest jeszcze bardziej skomplikowana. Otóż mało jest formanów rozpoczynających się od -y-. Należą tu przede wszystkim formant -y, dopełniacz -ъve (f.: *kry, *krъve) lub -ene (m.: *kamy, *kamene), oraz formant -yni. Rzeczowników z takimi formantami było w prasłowiańskim w ogóle mało, a ich odmiana była trudna, mało wyrazista. Istniała więc tendencja do utrzymania form bez palatalizacji III. Jednak jak się okazuje, sprawa jest bardziej skomplikowana, gdyż w polskim mamy np. rzecz. męskie obrońca, władca i żeński obrończyni, władczyni. Trudno rozstrzygnąć, czy formacje takie są prasłowiańskie - postać polska sugerowałaby istnienie konkurencyjnego przyrostka -ini (i I palatalizację): *obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī.</DIV>

<DIV>Oczywiście -y nie wstrzymuje palatalizacji, gdy stanowi końcówkę fleksyjną: Instr. pl. *vĺ̥ky, ale *otьci. W scs. gdy potrzeba, wprowadza się końcówki odmiany miękkiej jak w Acc. pl. *otьcę według *mǫžę wobec *vĺ̥ky. To również świadczy, że wybór formy z palatalizacją lub bez niej jest raczej uwarunkowany morfologicznie niż fonetycznie.</DIV>

<DIV>A co do owych różnic dialektalnych: w starocerkiewnosłowiańskim form z III palatalizacją mamy więcej niż w polskim, gdzie albo proces ten był słabszy, albo silniej działała analogia. Polski długo pozostawał bezpiśmienny, a skoro nie było tradycji literackiej, to i formy z III palatalizacją były łatwiej zastępowane przez formy wyrównane bez palatalizacji.</DIV>

<DIV>It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost 100 years after monophthongisation. </DIV>

<DIV>Na ogół przyjmuje się, że III palatalizacja zaszła później niż II, już w dobie rozpadu jedności prasłowiańskiej, gdyż jest mniej powszechna. Co więcej, powinna przecież teoretycznie zachodzić także po -e-, -ě-, a o ile wiem, nie ma na to żadnego przykładu.</DIV>

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it. 

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of
Common Slavic, 1964 

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

==== Jan II.'s comments on Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

My Polish is nothing special, but I already see there few issues:

1) Polish did not preserve old Slavic nasals, but they appeared ''de novo'' in similar or same position. That is what you can read in any historical glottochronology of Slavic, AFAIK.

2) Pleophony (polnoglasie) also went through metathesis of liquids, but went further (better, different way), according to my knowledge.

Definitelly, I need to read it in English :p and with Shevelov and Lamprecht by the hand ;) Anyway, if Slavists agree on anything one day, that would be a reason for a big festivity with flags, brass band and gallons of mead :)))) Jan II.

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-22T20:11:28Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński */

= Unresolved questions with the revision of Slevan =
(for the two Jans primarily)

I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!

OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].

I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.

I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?

----
''Consonants:'' I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS.

Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s.
What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? BPJ 10:37, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan I's comments ==

:''I have been thinking of how best to map the Vulgar Latin and Common Slavic vowel systems to each other. As Jan van Steenbergen pointed out to me it's quite unrealistic that VL ē maps to CS *ě and VL ĕ to CS *e; rather it should be the other way around with VL ĕ eventually becoming '''je''', or to state it abstractly vowel ''quality'' should be more important than vowel ''quantity'' in the mapping of VL to CS!''

Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:
*VL '''ē''' and '''oe''' match with CS '''ě'''
*VL '''ĕ''' and '''ae''' match with CS '''e'''
I know it is against my own advise, and I seriously contemplated the change. But my ultimate conclusion was that it would change Wenedyk beyond recognisability. And frankly, also beyond my taste; strange enough almost every example I tried with the "new" system just felt plain wrong to my intuition. So I decided to keep the old system. And I'm happy with it. ;)

:''OTOH I do think it's realistic to have VL ō become '''u''' since in CS *u2 developed from *ō which in turn developed from *au, and VL au in fact merged with ō, so that the product of this merger could have been qualitatively identified with CS *ō < *au before this was raised to [u].''

I agree, that's totally realistic. Frankly, I can't see why there should by any tension between this and point 1. If anything, the fronted counterpart of this would be '''e''' > '''i''', which frequently happens in Slezan.

:''I'm now quite certain that ''unstressed'' VL ē and ō merge with ĭ and ŭ (*ь and *ъ) respectively -- ''except'' in absolute final position, since I need to "preserve" certain endings, notably the ablative singular of the second declension, the first person singular present indicative of verbs and the nom/acc plural of the third declension.''

That's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that. Can you come up with a few samples? I just might adopt this idea into Wenedyk (provided that I won't have to rewrite 1/3 of my entire lexicon).

:''I've cheated with the liquid metathesis, having no qualitative change. As JvS pointed out Mrác's ancestors should have been MORTIUS rather than MARTIUS! Should I let myself get away with this?''

Why not? Names tend to behave a little differently from "normal" vocabulary. Another thing is that often names are from much later date than the era of the Roman (even in romlangs). And finally, ''Mrác'' could have other sources in Latin as well: Mǐratius or whathaveyou.

:''Consonants: I have decided that VL dj and gj become '''j''' à la Slovene since Slvanjec badly needs postvocalic '''j'''s. So '''dz''' is out; MEDIUS becomes '''mjej''' and Mr. '''Hrodzán''' becomes '''Hroján'''; also MAGIS becomes '''maj''' by way of *MAGIUS. ''

A very sensible choice! I didn't know it happens in Slovene as well, but I dó know that it is standard in (most?) Romance languages. In fact, I think it is a great improvement; according to my sources, ''dj'' and ''gj'' were already pronounced /j/ in the Vulgar Latin period (Italian forms like ''maggio'' IIRC seem to be later scientific reborrowings).
 And of course, you always have the option of turning ''dj'' into ''dz'' anyway in certain cases, which then can very simply be explained as an early scientific reborrowing!

:''Last but not least I have cheated with the third palatalization and VL ct, assuming '''c, z''' in ''all'' contexts. ''

Could you please tell me what the exceptions are? I just might to change that in Wenedyk, because frankly, I think I ended up with a little too much of ''c''!

:''Actually I'm not too keen on changing this because I want more '''c'''s. What do you think? Is such an over-generalization permissible in a hybrid language? ''

IMO it is. It's your language after all. Especially because Slvanjec is based on Slovak far more loosely than Wenedyk is based on Polish, I think you have quite some freedom in setting some of your own rules when that helps the final result.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 14:43, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

=== On ē and ĕ ===

:''Indeed, the other way around would be more logical. However, in Wenedyk I finally decided to stick with what I already had:

: * VL ē and oe match with CS ě
: * VL ĕ and ae match with CS e''

I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!

=== On ''e'' and ''o'' becoming jers ===

I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place. BPJ 08:35, 17 Jul 2005 (PDT)

=== Slovene *dj > j ===

It's actually only *dj which becomes ''j'' in Slovene, but letting DJ and GJ behave the same makes sense from a Romance POV.

Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree! BPJ 15:01, 16 Jul 2005 (PDT)

==Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments==

:''I think leaving things as they are would also decrease the number of medial '''je'''s, which from my æsthetic POV would be a Good Thing, since there are '''dj lj nj tj''' all over the place already -- it's becoming a bit too parodic!''

Fully agreed. So that's settled then! :)

:''I'm not too sure about Ē and Ō becoming ĭ and ŭ if I don't change the reflexes of Ĕ and Ē. I don't want to get jers all over the place and certainly not Ī and Ū coming up "strong" in the wrong places (where they wouldn't even be strong in Southern Romance) all over the place.''

Again, I agree. I've given it a little thought and finally decided against it. FWIW, in the development of Polish, stress didn't play a role at all.

:''Still I'm not totally convinced by your argument on Italian DJ: why would ''mezzo'' be a borrowing?, and at least NDJ becomes ''nz'' everywhere! Cf. Old French where even MJ and NJ often become /ndʒ/ e.g. SIMIA > ''singe''.''

Yes, that's true. I must check my resources.

=== Exceptions to third palatalization ===

:''Basically when an ''u'' or ''o'' vowel follows. Strangely with following ''a'' the outcome is variable. One book I read suggested that it may have to do with wether a preceding *i was from PIE *ī or *ei and that following ''u'' is the only sure exception, but Jan II and his wife (who is the family linguist) wouldn't agree!''

I can't give any conclusive answer. From what I understood from Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages (if I recall correctly), third palatalisation happens very irregularly and most often doesn't take place at all.
 But the way you formulated it, I got the impression that there are also exceptions to the KT > TS rule. I that true?

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 12:30, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

:Basically that same book as had strange ideas on the contexts of palatalization also had the idea that originally only *kti/*ktī becomes '''c''i'''''.
::The idea with the preceding monphthong/diphthong was of course meant to explain ''why'' 3d palatalization is irregular -- basically claiming that it is regular, but that it actually precedes monophthongization, and this influences its occurrence, to which the Havlišes objected. BPJ 13:41, 18 Jul 2005 (PDT)

== Jan II.'s comments ==

I am far from being competent to introduce your Slavo-romance discussion, but I can add some hints on history of Slavic lang:

'''On III. palatalisation:'''

It happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel. If there is cluster '''V-C-hard jer''' (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or '''V-C-y''' (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza). It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost '''100 years after''' monophthongisation.

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it.

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of Common Slavic, 1964

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

{| border=1
! type of change
| source 1
| source 2
|-
! s > ŝ (š, ch)
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! k’, g’ > s, z
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! a, o > å
| before 400 EC
| before 400 EC
|-
! I. palatalisation
| 400-500 EC
| 400-475 (±25) EC
|-
! monophtongisation
| 500-600 EC
| 510-585 (±15) EC
|-
! II. palatalisation
| 500-600 EC
| 575-650 (±25) EC
|-
! III. palatalisation
| 600-850 EC
| 575-675 (±25) EC
|-
! palatalisation of alveolars
| N/A
| 675-750 (±25) EC
|-
! epenthetic l’
| N/A
| 710-785 EC
|-
! metathesis of liquids
| 700-850 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of nasals
| 600 EC
| 750-825 (±25) EC
|-
! appearance of jers
| 800 EC
| 800 EC
|-
! dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol.
| N/A
| 850-925 EC
|-
! extinct. of nasals
| N/A
| 950-1025 EC
|-
! contraction VjV
| 900 EC
| 875-950 EC
|-
! vocalisation of jers
| 900-1150 EC
| 950-1025 EC
|}

===Benct's comments to Jan II's comments===

:''happens after '''i''', '''soft jer''' and '''e-nasal''' if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.''

Check. So far I got things right in Slvanjec.

:''terminal '''hard jer''' or '''y''' prevented palatalisation ''

Alas I wasn't aware of this restriction, hence the name of the lang is not '''Slvanjek ''' < SILVÁNICUM, and because the name of the lang is quite well established I'm ''very'' reluctant to "correct" this. Perhaps it will be permissible to over-apply 3. palatalization in a hybrid language, since having -ICUM become '''-jec''' rather than '''-jek''' gives a more distinct "flavor" to the language compared to other Romance languages!

One possible reason might be that the Roman contingent in the original mix of peoples didn't grasp the restriction and over-generalized the palatalization, but alas that doesn't tally very well with the dating you give -- even though I'm suspicious of any absolute dating of pre-historic changes!

Another possibility is that Vulgar Latin short U (hard jer) became a schwa-like sound earlier than what happened in true Slavic languages and so failed to block the 3. palatalization.

In a way I ''would'' now have liked Slevan to agree better both with Wenedyk and the Slavic languages in this respect, but OTOH I feel a reversal of this feature to be too drastic at this point. Also I don't want there to be too few instances of '''c''' and '''z''' in Slevan, and input to the 2. palatalization is already scarce as it is. What do you (both) think? [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] -- written at the library and hence no proper log-in or signing! :-(

::Why not to implement some "morphological equilibrations"? E.g. the genitive forms underwent the palatalisation and had affected the nominatives... thus it would be _slvanjec_ and not _slvanjek_ (I deduce, that NOM.SING had ending -ekU, but the genitive had vowel other than U or y). Or you may simply ignore this restriction (see, only one vowel _u_ in both forms '''u''' /ECSL/ > '''U''' /CCSL/ or '''u:''' > '''y''' stopped the III. palatalisation). [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

:::There was analogical leveling out between the second and fourth declension, so that at some point the gen.sg. of all words from the 2. declension became '''-y''', e.g. '''slváncy'''; otherwise it would be **'''slvánczi'''. Also the -ICU ending does not become -ekU, but the '''je''' is from a strong soft jer. I looks like I will simply ignore this restriction, but I still would like an explanation for doing so. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 09:26, 19 Aug 2005 (PDT)

=== Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ===

First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?

Regarding third palatalisation: like I said before, I don't use it very often in Wenedyk. Grzegorz Jagodziński's pages were not clear about the circumstances under which it occurs, and therefore I mostly adopted the notion that it happens "irregularly". In other words, I use it when it fits my taste. Jan II's input might cause some changes, though: I didn't know all that either, but it makes sense.

All in all, I think the principle of "analogical levelling" gives us plenty of space to follow our own tastes. Indeed, both Wenedyk and Slezan use something based on '''Slьvanьkъ''', fem. '''Slьvanьka'''. That might have spawned something like '''*slvanjek, *slvanjca''', which then became '''Ślewanik''', '''Ślewańka''' in Wenedyk and '''Slvanjec''', '''Slvanjca''' in Slevan.

Of course, there '''is''' a remote possibility of having the whole pair. Say, '''slvanjek''' for the adjective, and '''slvanjec''' for the language (from '''LINGUA SILVANICA > *lęgva sьlvanьka > ljadzva slvanjca''').

Since I recently got into contact with Grzegorz himself, I might as well ask him personally what he thinks about 3rd palatalisation.

--[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 06:25, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

====Benct's comments on Jan I's comments on...====

Of course it is not the 3. palatalization that applies irregularly, but analogical levelling that happens irregularly!

It is a very good idea that analogy in Slevan may have started from the feminine. I didn't think of that! Alas the name of the language can hardly be derived from '''LINGUA SILVANICA''': that would be adjectival use while language ''names'' in Latin are normally neuter; that's why you have '''Latinum, Italiano, Español, Français''', not '''Latina, Italiana, Española, Française'''. BTW the current form of the feminine is '''Slvánca''' -- one of the changes between version 3 and 3.5. [[User:Melroch|BPJ]] 13:07, 20 Aug 2005 (PDT)

==== Jan II's comments on Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments ====

''First of all, thanks for the interesting scheme you provided, Jan. If I may ask: which of the two columns has your own preference? And where do prof. Večerka's opinions fit?''

As I said, the second column has my definite preferences. Our old Slavistic/Indoeuropeistic gang in Brno (Večerka-Lamprecht-Blažek) seems to be quite reliable. They included lots of new findings, which made their work quite rigorous. The is already a new generation (Rejzek-Palasová), with them I am in contact (although it looks they are not happy with any slaviconlanging). I have also ordered within amazon.co.uk a book about Slavic glottochronology by Alexander M. Schenker, but amazon is VERY slow in obtaining the copy for me.

Problems with III. palatalisation might be that different Slavic langs treated differently the new forms, as mentioned above. [[User:Jan II.|Jan II.]]

==== Input from Grzegorz Jagodziński ====

I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński (whose pages about Polish sound changes were a major inspiration to me in the creation of Wenedyk) about his opinion. He tried to edit this page himself, but was blocked for some reason. After that, he sent me a long mail instead. For now, I'll reproduce the Polish text below (sorry Bengan, but I though that's better than nothing); tomorrow, I hope to translate it into English. --[[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 13:11, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

<DIV>On III. palatalisation: </DIV>
It happens after i, soft jer and
e-nasal if the palatalised consonant is followed by vowel.

W podręcznikach podają również pozycję
po sonantycznym ŕ̥ (< ьr < ir). Znam tylko 2 przykłady z scs. (starocerkiewnosłowiański): mŕ̥cati 'zmierzchać się, to grow dusk' oraz rastŕ̥zati (rastŕ̥ʒati) 'rozerwać, roztargać, to tear up'. Odpowiedniki "innosłowiańskie" (z innych języków, w tym z polskiego) nie mają palatalizacji (staropolskie mierzkać, dziś zmierzchać się z nieregularnym ch na miejscu k). Być może jest to związane z faktem, że sonanty zjawiły się w językach zachodniosłowiańskich później, a we wschodniosłowiańskich nie było ich nigdy. A przecież po grupie -ьr- palatalizacja raczej nie powinna zachodzić... i nie zachodziła.

Nic dziwnego w tym, że istniały różnice dialektyczne: przecież już II palatalizacja zachodziła niejednakowo w różnych językach słowiańskich: *kwaita- > *květъ || *cvětъ (polskie kwiat, ale rosyjskie cvet). Co więcej, formy w rodzaju kěna zamiast ogólnosłowiańskiego cěna są znane z okolic Nowogrodu Wielkiego. Być może były więc dialekty, w których II palatalizacja nie zaszła w ogóle.

If there is cluster V-C-hard jer (grěšnica X grěšnikU) or V-C-y (kUne.ndzI X kUne.gyni), the terminal hard jer or y prevented palatalisation of C, when V fulfils conditions for it. Quite often morphological “equilibration” has happened (nom. grěšnikU, gen. grěšnika). Quite often appeared doubletons (je.ga/je.dza).

Gdyby y lub ъ rzeczywiście wstrzymywały III palatalizację, oczekiwalibyśmy jej w formach z następującą inną samogłoską. A przecież -ika i -ica są niemal równie częste! Tak samo spotykamy równie często  -ьca jak -ьka, -ьce jak -ьko itd. Np. *polьʒa 'korzyść' (scs), ale *ulьga 'ulga' (pol., z innym przedrostkiem),
staropolskie oboczne jajce i jajko, miejsce i miastko (< *městьce || *městьko), itd.

Moim zdaniem raczej należy szukać: 1)
uwarunkowań morfologicznych (tak przypuszczał już Jan Otrębski, który zmarł w
1971 roku), 2) różnic dialektalnych. Oto kilka przykładów:
<UL>
<LI>*děvica, ale
*děvьka (scs. děvica 'virgin, girl', pol.
dziewica 'virgin', dziewka 'girl' (trochę
przestarzałe)) - przecież nie ma słów *děvikъ ani
*děvьkъ,
<LI>*žitnica 'stodoła' (scs,
żytnica znana chyba nawet w staropolskim, nie chce mi się szukać),
ale (scs) bližika bliska, krewna', ǫžika 't.s (krewna)'
- widać, że -ica jest w rzeczowniku nieosobowym, ale -ika w
osobowym, jednak obok tego także
*děvica (osobowe!),
<LI>scs zna naricati 'nazywać
się', dviʒati 'dźwigać', polski zna tylko tylko narzekać (z
zupełnie innym znaczeniem), dźwigać,
<LI>twardy jer wcale nie hamował
palatalizacji: *otьcь 'ojciec', *zajęcь 'zając',
*měsęcь 'miesiąc, księżyc', *pěnęʒь 'pieniądz' (zapożyczenie
z germańskiego), *kъnęʒь 'książę, ksiądz', *vьśь 'wszystek,
cały' - a przecież wszystkie te wyrazy wywodzą się od form
twardotematowych: *otьkъ, *zajękъ, *měsękъ,
*pěnęgъ, *kъnęgъ, *vьxъ - i żadna z tych form nie
zachowała się w żadnym z języków słowiańskich.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Jak widać, nie można w każdym razie powiedzieć, że -ъ wstrzymuje III palatalizację. To prawda, że są znane niemal wyłącznie formy na -ikъ, prawda też, że jeśli formant ten oznacza osobę płci męskiej, to osobę płci żeńckiej oznacza -ika, a nie -ica. Chodzi bowiem raczej o to, aby ujednolicić
morfologicznie formy dla obu rodzajów. Jednak gdy forma męska ma inne znaczenie niż żeńska, albo gdy istnieje tylko jedna z form, ujednolicenie nie zachodzi (por. polskie kierownik 'osoba', ale kierownica 'przedmiot' - osoba to kierowniczka).</DIV>

<DIV>Co do wstrzymania palatalizacji przez -y, sprawa jest jeszcze bardziej skomplikowana. Otóż mało jest formanów rozpoczynających się od -y-. Należą tu przede wszystkim formant -y, dopełniacz -ъve (f.: *kry, *krъve) lub -ene (m.: *kamy, *kamene), oraz formant -yni. Rzeczowników z takimi formantami było w prasłowiańskim w ogóle mało, a ich odmiana była trudna, mało wyrazista. Istniała więc tendencja do utrzymania form bez palatalizacji III. Jednak jak się okazuje, sprawa jest bardziej skomplikowana, gdyż w polskim mamy np. rzecz. męskie obrońca, władca i żeński obrończyni, władczyni. Trudno rozstrzygnąć, czy formacje takie są prasłowiańskie - postać polska sugerowałaby istnienie konkurencyjnego przyrostka -ini (i I palatalizację): *obornьca, *voldьca : *obornьčini, *voldьčini < *-ikā : *-ikīnī.</DIV>

<DIV>Oczywiście -y nie wstrzymuje palatalizacji, gdy stanowi końcówkę fleksyjną: Instr. pl. *vĺ̥ky, ale *otьci. W scs. gdy potrzeba, wprowadza się końcówki odmiany miękkiej jak w Acc. pl. *otьcę według *mǫžę wobec *vĺ̥ky. To również świadczy, że wybór formy z palatalizacją lub bez niej jest raczej uwarunkowany morfologicznie niż fonetycznie.</DIV>

<DIV>A co do owych różnic dialektalnych: w starocerkiewnosłowiańskim form z III palatalizacją mamy więcej niż w polskim, gdzie albo proces ten był słabszy, albo silniej działała analogia. Polski długo pozostawał bezpiśmienny, a skoro nie było tradycji literackiej, to i formy z III palatalizacją były łatwiej zastępowane przez formy wyrównane bez palatalizacji.</DIV>

<DIV>It should happen along with II. palatalisation, although there are not unified opinions on when in happened. It is also unclear when it begun. What is sure, it happened almost 100 years after monophthongisation. </DIV>

<DIV>Na ogół przyjmuje się, że III palatalizacja zaszła później niż II, już w dobie rozpadu jedności prasłowiańskiej, gdyż jest mniej powszechna. Co więcej, powinna przecież teoretycznie zachodzić także po -e-, -ě-, a o ile wiem, nie ma na to żadnego przykładu.</DIV>

And here is the discussed topic, the Slavic glottochronology. The source 2 is newer and I found it more competent because of other issues. And for sure, source 2 knew source 1 and used it. 

source 1 – G. Shevelov, The historical phonology of
Common Slavic, 1964 

source 2 – A. Lamprecht, The Common Slavic, 1987

 
<DIV>
<TABLE border=1>
<TR>
<TH>type of change </TH>
<TD>source 1 </TD>
<TD>source 2 </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>s > ŝ (š, ch) </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>k’, g’ > s, z </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>a, o > å </TH>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD>
<TD>before 400 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>I. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>400-500 EC </TD>
<TD>400-475 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>monophtongisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>510-585 (±15) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>II. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>500-600 EC </TD>
<TD>575-650 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>III. palatalisation </TH>
<TD>600-850 EC </TD>
<TD>575-675 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>palatalisation of alveolars </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>675-750 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>epenthetic l’ </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>710-785 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>metathesis of liquids </TH>
<TD>700-850 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of nasals </TH>
<TD>600 EC </TD>
<TD>750-825 (±25) EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>appearance of jers </TH>
<TD>800 EC </TD>
<TD>800 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>dispalat. ‘ě > ‘a in Pol. </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>850-925 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>extinct. of nasals </TH>
<TD>N/A </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>contraction VjV </TH>
<TD>900 EC </TD>
<TD>875-950 EC </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH>vocalisation of jers </TH>
<TD>900-1150 EC </TD>
<TD>950-1025 EC </TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Zdania tu są bardzo rozbieżne. Czesław Bartula (Podstawowe wiadomości z gramatyki staro-cerkiewno-słowiańskiej na tle porównawczym, PWN Warszawa 1981) podaje:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: początek naszej ery (1 A.D.) -
przełom II / III wieku (200 A.D.)</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: IV - VI w. n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: koniec VII w
n.e.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zdzisław Stieber (Zarys gramatyki porównawczej języków słowiańskich, Warszawa 1969) podaje inną chronologię:</DIV>
<UL>
<LI>I palatalizacja: wiek III i IV n.e.</LI>
<LI>II palatalizacja: "po wieku VI", tj. wiek VII lub
VIII n.e.</LI>
<LI>III palatalizacja: początek VIII
wieku.</LI></UL>
<DIV>Zmieszanie PIE a, o > a uważane jest powszechnie za zjawisko bardzo stare, sięgające epoki praindoeuropejskiej. Przecież tak naprawdę to samogłoski a i o zachowały swoją odrębność tylko w językach italskich, celtyckich i w greckim, wszędzie poza tym uległy zmieszaniu (nawet w anatolijskich i tocharskim). Oczywiście należałoby tu dopisać jeszcze PIE szwa (z wyjątkiem dalszych sylab, gdzie zazwyczaj zanikło). Nie ma też żadnych podstaw do rekonstrukcji å w epoce starszej: przecież jeszcze w okresie ekspansji Słowian z całą pewnością wymawiano krótkie a! Osobiście uważam, że zaokrąglenie słowiańskiego a > o to zjawisko sięgające lat 700-800 n.e., tuż przed powstaniem najstarszych pism słowiańskich.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>W każdym razie I palatalizacja była już martwa, gdy Słowianie zetknęłi się z Gotami. Rzeczywiście, w tej chwili przypominam sobie tylko jeden przykład wyrazu, który uważany jest za germańskiego pochodzenia, a który wykazuje I palatalizację: *šelmъ (staropolskie szłom, dziś tylko
hełm, z germańskiego *xelmaz). Wyrazy uważane za gockiego pochodzenia mają już tylko II palatalizację: ocьtъ 'ocet' z goc. aket, *cęta z gockiego kintus 'nazwa drobnej monety'. I palatalizacja była już z całą pewnością martwa w okresie ekspansji słowiańskiej, która mogła rozpocząć się nawet nieco przed rokiem 500 n.e. W każdym razie gdy przodkowie Słoweńców dotarli na tereny, gdzie mieszkają obecnie, zapożyczyli nazwę rzeki Gīla jako Zilja.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nie rozumiem także, dlaczego Lamprecht widzi tak późną datę pojawienia się nosówek. Otóż jak się wydaje, przynajmniej pojawienie się ę powinno poprzedzać III palatalizację, bo przecież łatwiej wyobrazić sobie proces -ęk- > -ęc- niż -enk- > -enc-. Zanik nosówek nie dotyczy oczywiście wszystkich języków słowiańskich: przecież w polskim nosówki istnieją do dziś, podobnie jest w pewnych dialektach słoweńskich (o czym mało kto wie).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Na koniec, kontrakcja VjV była procesem nieregularnym, uwarunkowanym częstością użycia lub czynnikami morfologicznymi. Przecież do dziś mamy rosyjskie stojat' = polskie stać. A i w polskim obok bezokoliczników wiać, stać, bać się mamy nieściągnięte wieje, stoję, boję się. Nie uległy ściągnięciu także liczne inne formy: kajać się, krajać, a przecież ściągnięcie
-aja- powinno być łatwiejsze niż ściągnięcie -oja- (*stojati, *bojati sę) czy -ěja-.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wreszcie na koniec, "wokalizacja jerów" to pojęcie bardzo nieprecyzyjne. Przede wszystkim, nie zachodziła ona tak samo w różnych językach: w rosyjskim czy w polskim jery mocne (parzyste licząc od końca wyrazu) zlewały się z innymi samogłoskami. Ale już w bułgarskim jer twardy zachował własną, inną wymowę. Z kolei w
połabskim zachowały się jery w sylabie pierwszej, jako samogłoski o specjalnej barwie. Czasem zresztą początkowe jery zachowywały się w językach wschodniosłowiańskich. W kaszubskim i w językach łużyckich działała zasada, że w wyrazach dłuższych niż dwusylabowe dwa końcowe jery są słabe. Przemiany jerów zachodziły więc w różny sposób (i w różnym czasie) już w poszczególnych językach słowiańskich, i z okresem prasłowiańskim nie mają wiele wspólnego.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Podobne uwagi dotyczą zresztą "przestawki" płynnych, która we wschodnisłowiańskim nie była żadną przestawką (ale pełnogłosem). Dowiedziono też, że w staropolskim istniał również rodzaj pełnogłosu, a mianowicie np. *-or- > *-ъro-, a nie od razu -ro- jak kiedyś sądzono. Scs. zachował szereg form nieprzestawionych (choćby alkati), podobnie -ar- jest normą w kaszubskim, a pewne wyrazy zachowały się także w polskim jeszcze do niedawna (karw, dziś wyraz ten wyszedł z użycia wyparty całkiem przez wół i byk).</DIV>

User talk:Muke

2005-08-22T18:38:16Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Question */

[Talk about me here, yo.]

LOL. This is Trebor Jung of Conlang. Is this Wiki for your own personal use or can anyone post stuff on their conlangs and/or conworlds? You can reply to me at treborjung at free dot fr.
Thanks.

:Anyone can feel free to post here. :x) —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 11:32, 24 Jun 2004 (PDT)

Trebor again. How do you make tables in Wikipedia? I've seen examples but they look complicated... Thanks. 28 June 2004 14:55 EST

:If you know how, you can use HTML to make tables. Otherwise, there is a simpler wiki table markup described in brief at [[FrathWiki:How does one edit a page]], and a detailed description of a the table formats the wiki understands at [[Wikipedia:m:MediaWiki User's Guide: Using tables|MediaWiki User's Guide: Using tables]]. If that's still not clear, you could mark what needs tabulated, and I could give working on it a shot. —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 13:16, 28 Jun 2004 (PDT)

Thanks. Please make tables at [[Kasin]] for consonants and vowels (please add place of articulation; you can delete the X-Sampa representation), and at [[Kosi]] for these: Consonants, Vowels, (again please add POA),
Cases, Possession, Demonstratives, Aspects, Moods, Voices, Derivation, and Lexicon
. Much appreciated!

----

I tried creating a table for [[Kosi|Kosi's]] vowels. How does it look? (Because I'm visually impaired I can't actually check it myself.) --Trebor, 29 June 2004, 18:00 EST

:It looks all right, except the purpose of the rounded / unrounded line confuses me — the way it lines up it shows "Unrounded" in the same column as "Mid", and "Rounded" in the same column as "Front" (so that i and e seem to be classed as front rounded vowels). I'd fix it now but I can't quite make out which cells "Rounded" and "Unrounded" are intended to head (it might need a little more reformatting). —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 15:30, 29 Jun 2004 (PDT)

Whoops. Here are [[Kosi|Kosi's]] vowels and their X-Sampa equivalents: i /i/, ü /y/, û /M/, u /u/, e /e/, ö /2/, y /@/, jo /jo/, ô /7/, o /o/, a /a/, ja /ja/. And could you also help me with tables for Kosi Cases, Possession, Demonstratives, Aspects, Moods, Voices, Derivation, and Lexicon (Lexicon headings: Kosi, Etymology, English; you can remove the brackets and < for the etymology. Also, could you make a vowel table and grammatical structures table at [[Kasin]]. Thanks! Or if you like, I'll try making tables and you can check them? --Trebor, 12:27 EST, 30 June 2004

:I'm working on them by and by. —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 11:53, 30 Jun 2004 (PDT)

Oh, I see.

How come when I enter in an accent with Alt codes (e.g. o-trema alt+0246), the page goes out of forms mode without having saved my changes? Annoying. --Trebor, 19:24, 30 June 2004

:My guess is your number lock is off, thus instead of the alt-46 at the end it's reading it as alt-left and alt-right (go back a page, then go forward again) — if I do that in IE it will erase changes that I've made. If that's not the problem, I'm not sure offhand what else it could be. —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 17:51, 30 Jun 2004 (PDT)

That's strange, I just tried alt+0246 and it worked. But my numb lock was on when I noticed this problem yesterday too (AFAIK)... --Trebor, 08:57 EST, 1 July 2004

== The wrong version loads ==
The [[Sisiwön]] article mentions it is a collaborative conlang. In the group for discussing it, Alex Fink mentioned he added to it, but he additions aren't on the page. I thot maybe the Recent Changes page might give a link to the new version, but it doesn't work. On the Recent Changes page I also noticed you added a Lexicon table to [[Kosi]], but it's not on that page. I went to edit the page, but the table formatting exists in the Edit This Page box, so why not in the actual article? This is very puzzling. --Trebor, 09:52 EST, 2 July 2004

:My guess is that your browser is loading from its cache instead of the server. Try a hard reload (usually shift-F5) when you view a page, and see if that helps. —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 07:08, 2 Jul 2004 (PDT)

Even more puzzling, I edited [[Sisiwön]] and [[Kosi]], and the changes appeared in the articles :O --Trebor, 11:04, 2 July 2004 EST

== Problem with Table ==
[[Sisiwön]] has a consonant table but it won't show up properly in the article. Why won't it work? --Trebor, 21:17, 2 July 2004 EST

:It should be fixed now. The table had been begun with pipe then open-brace "|{", instead of open-brace then pipe "{|", so it wasn't interpreting it as a table. —[[User:Muke|Muke Tever]] | [[User Talk:Muke|✎]] 18:25, 2 Jul 2004 (PDT)

Hi Muke, I have a small request: Would you mind please deleting my [[User:Trebor|Trebor]] page as well as the [[Kasin]] page? Thanks. --Trebor

== Question ==

Hi Muke, here's a question to you...

A few days ago, I asked Grzegorz Jagodziński to comment on the Slavic soundchanges discussion on [[Talk:Slevan]]. However, when he tried to register (or to make an edit), he got the following answer: '''<nowiki>Your IP address is listed as an open proxy in the [http://www.sorbs.net SORBS] DNSBL. You cannot create an account.</nowiki>''' As he assured me, his IP address is not an open proxy at all. His Internet connection is of such kind that his IP is hidden, and that instead the IP of his provider is shown. There's nothing he can do about that, and obviously he has nothing in common with disseminating spam. Is there anything that can be done? Oddly enough, he had no problem at all registering at Wikipedia.

Cheers, [[User:IJzeren Jan|IJzeren Jan]] 11:38, 22 Aug 2005 (PDT)

Talk:Slevan

2005-08-20T13:25:18Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Jan I's comments on Jan II's comments and on Benct's comments to Jan II's comments */

Talk:Slevan

2005-07-18T19:30:31Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Jan I's comments on BPJ's comments on Jan I's comments */

Talk:Slevan

2005-07-16T21:47:07Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Jan I's comments */

Talk:Slevan

2005-07-16T21:46:16Z

IJzeren Jan: /* Jan I's comments */

Talk:Slevan

2005-07-16T21:43:58Z

IJzeren Jan: My comments

User:IJzeren Jan

2005-07-16T21:19:18Z

IJzeren Jan:

#REDIRECT [[IBWiki:User:IJzeren Jan]]